Canadian Pilot Unity

[Duke Point]

Hate to break it to you guys...…..but AC already did their homework on this.

They know the pilot demographic, and they know how each of you are likely to vote. There's no "puzzle" for you figure out.

They're a country mile ahead of you guys and your Union, just like they've been two country miles ahead of ACPA......and they've duped us for years.

They've broken you guys into sub-groups, (A-scale, B-scale, young old) and the offer will appeal just enough to each "sub-group" to get this passed, while screwing you all as a unified whole.

You're done....like dinner......just like the rest of us here at Mainline have been for more than a decade. Good luck though.

DP.

[Inverted2]

You're 100% correct. Just like the Canadian elections. Hence we are stuck with Mr. Dressup.

[DH8Pilot]

What about the guys at Jazz who recently just got a base transfer so they don't need to commute, only to be bumped out again?(something that I risk right now)
Or the reserve FO who, after a year, finally held a block only to be bumped back into reserve?

Based on our current collective agreement, this could never happen. GGN pilots likely will only bid into an open vacancy. Once you hold a position, it's yours so a GGN pilot can't just come in and bump you off the list. That's not how it works. Maybe if you read your contract (something a lot of post 2015 hires have never done at length) you would know this.

At worst they will have a few people slot ahead of them if base vacancies open up but they will not be bumped out of their base. Now, if due to the loss of a few -100's people are pushed out of a position because a current JAZZ pilot is reduced they would have reduction rights. So there goes your freeze and you can now bid onto whatever you want.

I don't entirely agree. If one is sitting at the bottom of the list of a reducing plane, where more senior pilots are continuously bidding onto other types, they could easily find themselves stuck in that position throughout the reduction. As an example, look at the January 2018 v. January 2019 bid packages for YYZ or YUL DH8 FO. Despite a number of the more senior FOs leaving, the bottom group has remained almost exactly the same. As I've stated many times before over the past couple of days, my concern is the changes in CPA will only exacerbate this problem, GGN DOH or not. Those on the bottom of the DH8 list with be stuck there throughout the reduction, as more senior pilots bid other positions. If this agreement comes to fruition, I foresee some stuck on reserve for up to 3 years on the DH8. We cannot forget about this group through the transitions. I understand times might be great for RJ crews, but that doesn't extend to the DH8.

[Outlaw58]

Karma folks, what goes around comes around.

I once was told: "Be careful whose toes you step on today, for they may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow."

Wouldn't it be great if after spending 30 years flying for a company, you could make a side move and have most, if not all, your seniority and experience taken into account instead of this farce of going straight to the BOTL. The OP's point is that if we start looking after the good of the group, it will eventually benefit every airline pilot and no one will have to go: "FU ALL, need to look after #1" since #1 and the group would be one and the same.

I am a Jazz 1 YOS FO and I will support DOH if it is on the table.

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[DH8Pilot]

I am a Jazz 1 YOS FO and I will support DOH if it is on the table.

Please post what plane you're on.

[Outlaw58]

I am a Jazz 1 YOS FO and I will support DOH if it is on the table.

Please post what plane you're on.

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

[DH8Pilot]

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

So you're top 1/2 the list at best? What if I told you that after the news on Monday, almost everyone above you on the list has bid onto the RJ? What if you're stuck where you are for the next 2 years, as those above you move over, while no new hires are put onto the DH8 below?

Realize that when I'm making the posts I do, I'm doing so to try look out for the people in your exact position. If this deal goes through unmitigated, you might very well be stuck watching your buddies on other types get a much better life out of Jazz than you. This isn't about GGN, this is about what those stuck at the bottom can make out of it. That being said, without significant changes, GGN DOH will dramatically affect you.

[Outlaw58]

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

So you're top 1/2 the list at best? What if I told you that after the news on Monday, almost everyone above you on the list has bid onto the RJ? What if you're stuck where you are for the next 2 years, as those above you move over, while no new hires are put onto the DH8 below?

Realize that when I'm making the posts I do, I'm doing so to try look out for the people in your exact position. If this deal goes through unmitigated, you might very well be stuck watching your buddies on other types get a much better life out of Jazz than you. This isn't about GGN, this is about what those stuck at the bottom can make out of it. That being said, without significant changes, GGN DOH will dramatically affect you.

I get it and I know it will greatly affect me. It would suck to sit where I am when I thought at the time I got hire that by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule, It would suck to see GGN guys hired after me slide right into a CRJ spot I'd like to have a shot at. But what would suck even more, would be to go:"screw you GGN, BOTL, sucks to be you" and not put my money where my mouth is, when I have been so vocal (not necessarily on this forum) in the past about recognizing time in the industry and experience instead of that going straight to the BTL every time you make a career move (forced or otherwise).

and I'm bottom 1/4 btw.

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[pilotdude86]

When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.

How about when the Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"

How about when the Air Canada 4 Year Flat Pay Pilots/Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"


PD

[complexintentions]

You're 100% correct. Just like the Canadian elections. Hence we are stuck with Mr. Dressup.

Off-topic (sorta): I'm just happy they've opened up voting for expats again so we can all vote for Anyone But Justin.

[DH8Pilot]

I get it and I know it will greatly affect me. It would suck to sit where I am when I thought at the time I got hire that by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule, It would suck to see GGN guys hired after me slide right into a CRJ spot I'd like to have a shot at. But what would suck even more, would be to go:"screw you GGN, BOTL, sucks to be you" and not put my money where my mouth is, when I have been so vocal (not necessarily on this forum) in the past about recognizing time in the industry and experience instead of that going straight to the BTL every time you make a career move (forced or otherwise).

and I'm bottom 1/4 btw.

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I'm glad you're willing to make that sacrifice; however, what I'm arguing is for more free flowing ability of pilots at Jazz to switch types, especially on those being reduced. Why should you be significantly more affected by DOH and reductions than your ground school colleagues on the Q or RJ?

Anyway, it appears the negotiating committee has done a great job addressing this in the CA overview.

[TheSocialChameleon]

What will happen to those are scheduled for CA upgrades at Jazz. Will they get CA protection pay in the event they get bumped.

[TheSocialChameleon]

You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.

[digits_]

Hi guys and gals, with some of the comments made on the "GGN gonna bye bye" thread I can't help but to start a poll and a discussion on where we actually are at with regards to being unified as a pilot group?

The entire industry is watching what you guys ratify at Jazz. I completely appreciate the history, and part of an important history lesson is to not repeat its mistakes. When I see comments like "I can't wait for them to go BOTL, or BOTL is what GGN deserves, etc" I lose hope in our pilot group.

On the flipside, you youngins, you outdo the old by a large margin. Learn from the history of guys throwing each other under the buss. Don't just ratify a contract for more airplanes... don't be selfish. Ratify it if it benefits the greater good of the entire pilot group. Let the corporates compete against each other. We are all pilots and shouldn't be competing against each other. Realize that a good career is dependent on your involvement in making this industry better for yourself and your peers. You and your peers all want the same thing. Career stability, pay, schedule, predictable progression.

I think this is a noble post and a very welcome positive attitude to approach take-over and mergers in the future. From what I can read in other topics, historically there has been a lot of backstabbing. In the last 5 years, there has been no major organised backstabbing for new/younger pilots in take-over/merger situations. There has been swoop, and the creation of some A and B payscales, but if you want to overslimplify things, that was more of an old vs young debate, not soo much young vs young.

This could be a great opportunity for the younger/newer generation to give a signal to start a catch-you-when-you-fall attitude between the different companies. ALPA seems to want to represent all pilots in Canada. So here is the perfect opportunity to show that they truly want to do that. I'm not a big fan of ALPA in general, but in cases like these, there would definitely be upsides to such an organisation.

If the eternal quarrels between pilot groups will ever be a thing of the past, this could be the first step. I also fear that if it does not happen in this case, it will unfortunately always exist and the one unified pilot group will truly be death.

Signed, a non GGN, non Jazz pilot

[Mach7]

@deauleax

Your quote;

It’s about what’s right for all those guys who’s been sacrificing for the last 2 years.

Are you serious about his comment!!

There are pilots here that sacrificed a lot more so your 2 year seniority wonders could move into a comfortable position at Jazz directly from the classroom without having to work your way up the ladder through numerous companies, pay scales and shitty working conditions.

Or those like myself that went on strike in '97 to enhance contract language, whilst just about losing my house at the same time due to ZERO income for 60 days.

I have been in this industry since 1977, so don't feed me this sacrificing crap.

This is the problem with this industry, we all call ourselves professional Pilots but at the same time willing to move forward by screwing the guy beside us. GGN Pilots deserve DOH regardless of a handful of individuals losing out because they either quit GGN to come here, (there choice), or our reps had the fore thought to include this Pilot group because they are our ALPA brothers and sisters.

Did you know the big hold up at AC right now with respect to getting the ALPA card signed is that they want to change the constitution to eliminate the language regarding DOH in the event of a merger?

Some might think this is protecting there Pilot group, but in my mind this is setting the industry back decades.

My 2 cents worth,,

[TheSocialChameleon]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

[TheSocialChameleon]

What the hell is a blended payscale anyways. Is it an average of scale A and scale B. In which case you won't be making as much as you did pre-2015 scale but not as low as B scale?

No deal...

How about not making our labour cheaper again. Not watering down the A scale too.

It should not be a blended payscale. It should be a 'finally feed your family because a pilot is not an entry level job' scale.

[Outlaw58]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

Friend of mine always make a point to mention that he has no gag reflex on every interview. We competed for a job once.....he won.

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[TheSocialChameleon]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

Perhaps just like your mom did to put you through flight school. You should've worked hard, look what you made your mommy do.