10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

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LennyLeonard
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10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by LennyLeonard » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am

Already 10 years passed... Are we any closer to a 1500 hr rule here?
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Roadrunnersmother
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:57 am

LennyLeonard wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am
Already 10 years passed... Are we any closer to a 1500 hr rule here?
1500 hr rule for ?
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Hilroy
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by Hilroy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:57 am
LennyLeonard wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am
Already 10 years passed... Are we any closer to a 1500 hr rule here?
1500 hr rule for ?
It was a recommandation to have 1500+ hr pilots in airline cockpits, and not allow CPL to fly. It is still not in place, and I doubt with the current market that it will become.

They did implement an additional ATP training that you have to attend before doing your actual initial ground school. Swayne Martin explains it very well in one of his videos.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by tps8903 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:08 pm

LennyLeonard wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am
Already 10 years passed... Are we any closer to a 1500 hr rule here?
This always confused me. I realize that this rule was devised as a result of this crash. However neither of the pilots involved in this crash had less than 1500 hours.

Captain had an ATPL with 3379 hours
F/O had a CPL with 2244 hours

Now someone is going to tell me that had she written her ATPL test this crash would never had happened......
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goingnowherefast
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:24 pm

The requirement lowered the supply of qualified pilots. Pay went up as a result. Now pilots could afford to live in their base and avoid fatiguing commutes.

Not sure if that was the intent, but that has been the result.
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Hangry
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by Hangry » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:34 pm

An instructor with 1500 hrs can get an ATPL.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:55 pm

Crash happened cause of fatigue... How those new regs coming?
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by confusedalot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:58 pm

Hangry wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:34 pm
An instructor with 1500 hrs can get an ATPL.
Absolutely. And I was one of them decades ago.

I was fortunate enough to not put a scratch on a person or a plane, so atpl or not does not strike me as a barometer to safety.

Both pilots had sufficient hours. Something else, and circumstances, had lots to do with the unfortunate outcome.

I'll leave it at that.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by infiniteregulus » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:34 pm

Perhaps the low pay and resulting commute was a factor -- for both? But no, pilots are overpaid.... :roll:
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:33 pm

Funny how nobody has yet mentioned that the cause of the crash was the crew’s inability to recognize and recover from a stall.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:07 am

I always thought that was implied.

Why couldn't they recover from the stall? Fatigue. Why were they fatigued? Stupid long commute. Why was the commute so bad? Low pay, couldn't afford a crash pad at base.

The captain's training history came into play as well.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by altiplano » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:18 am

Didn't the FO retract the flaps early too? Training, experience, fatigue... she worked as a barista in Seattle and took like 4 flights to make her commute that morning...
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by telex » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:11 am

Probable Cause
​The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain's inappropriate response to the activation of the stick shaker, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which the airplane did not recover. Contributing to the accident were (1) the flight crew's failure to monitor airspeed in relation to the rising position of the lowspeed cue, (2) the flight crew's failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures, (3) the captain's failure to effectively manage the flight, and (4) Colgan Air's inadequate procedures for airspeed selection and management during approaches in icing conditions.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by av8ts » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:00 am

At first indication of a stall the Captain pulled back on the controls and kept pulling overriding the stick push. I think he thought it was a tail stall due to ice.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by daedalusx » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:35 pm

av8ts wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:00 am
At first indication of a stall the Captain pulled back on the controls and kept pulling overriding the stick push. I think he thought it was a tail stall due to ice.
Yeah the dude who failed almost every check ride in his career let his auto pilot level him off all the way to the stick shaker and yet there's still people who thinks he was reacting to a tailplane stalll. :roll:

Perhaps you should read the CVR transcript and check out his file ...
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by av8ts » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:11 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:35 pm
av8ts wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:00 am
At first indication of a stall the Captain pulled back on the controls and kept pulling overriding the stick push. I think he thought it was a tail stall due to ice.
Yeah the dude who failed almost every check ride in his career let his auto pilot level him off all the way to the stick shaker and yet there's still people who thinks he was reacting to a tailplane stalll. :roll:

Perhaps you should read the CVR transcript and check out his file ...
I didn’t say he was reacting to a tail stall I said I think he believed it was a tail stall and that’s why he pulled on the controls.
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sstaurus
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by sstaurus » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:25 pm

And he’s saying you’re giving the captain too much credit here. What kind of stall probably didn’t cross their minds.
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farfale
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by farfale » Sun May 05, 2019 8:09 pm

I'm very surprised how pilots in North America are shocked every time they see 250 hours pilot. This is a common practice in almost every country around the world except in the US and a little bit in Canada and safety hasn't been an issue overseas.

The FAA was just hiding behind the fact that the working conditions were very bad, to say the least. And that the Colgan accident has nothing to do with that
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by leftoftrack » Thu May 23, 2019 9:06 pm

your suggestion that a pilot out of the Calgary flying club and one that comes through the Lufthansa cadet program at 250hrs are the same quality is laughable military pilots airmanship is shit at that level but they can survive combat
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by Rooster69 » Fri May 24, 2019 7:11 am

There is no magic number of flying hours that equates to being am experienced pilot.

5000 hours of straight and level at 35000+ feet really doesn’t mean that pilot would have a clue on how to handle an unscripted emergency. Some pilots do really swell in the sim. Not so good on the line.

250 hour pilot from military Vs 250 pilot out of College? Not even close.
Yadda, yaddda, there are always exceptions, don’t get your knickers in a knot if you were hired with 250 hours at an airline. Of flown with good and bad pilots from all different levels of experience.


Mandating 1500 hrs might look good in front of cameras , but really wouldn’t do anything to improve safety. Fatigue kills, has killed, and will kill again. Every one, and I mean every one, of my boneheaded airplane mistakes has happen after 11 p.m. home based time at the tail end of a duty day. Last summer, during roughly 90% of my late night Atlantic crossings, one of the pilots had to take controlled rest.

Canada’s fatigue regulations are still some of the weakest regulations on this planet.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm

Hilroy wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am
Swayne Martin explains it very well in one of his videos.
He's twelve and AFAIK the 1500 hour rule hasn't helped anyone prevent an accident. The accident wasn't even caused by low experience, it was icing, pilot error and fatigue.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by telex » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:08 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm
Hilroy wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am
Swayne Martin explains it very well in one of his videos.
He's twelve and AFAIK the 1500 hour rule hasn't helped anyone prevent an accident. The accident wasn't even caused by low experience, it was icing, pilot error and fatigue.
Pure incompetence.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by complexintentions » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:15 am

telex wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:08 pm
Pure incompetence.
Have to agree. Using fatigue as an excuse to completely mishandle a stall recovery is just not on.

Or if one is actually so tired they don't know that pitching up at low airspeed is a bad idea, then they're not fit for duty and shouldn't have reported.

The fact that the accident shone a light on horrendous duty regs and pay is positive, but hardly the reason for the accident.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:11 am

complexintentions wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:15 am
they're not fit for duty and shouldn't have reported.
Fatigue plays cruel tricks.
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Re: 10 years ago today Colgan Air 3407

Post by telex » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:17 am

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:11 am
complexintentions wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:15 am
they're not fit for duty and shouldn't have reported.
Fatigue plays cruel tricks.
Pure incompetence is no trick.

Stalling an airplane and having no idea what to do about it is not a cruel fatigue trick.
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