FO taxiing

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goingnowherefast
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by goingnowherefast »

When complicated decisions need to be made (weather, mechanical), I give the task of flying to the FO and allow me the freedom to look at the problem in more detail.

While taxiing, can always just stop and set the brakes, then worry about whatever is wrong. Doesn't matter who was taxiing. Once the plane is stopped, there's 2 heads able to concentrate 100%.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by GRK2 »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 am
GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.
Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.
GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!
Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls :twisted:
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Last edited by GRK2 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FO taxiing

Post by GRK2 »

GRK2 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:13 am
digits_ wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 am
GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
As Complex implies...it's waaay easier to fly the damn thing than to get it to the CAT II or III holding point on Low Vis Ops, or correspondingly find your way in after that CAT III A or B landing, or to find the bloody stand at your major airport after a 12 hour plus day.
Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.
GRK2 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
Simply put, a big number of company SOP's require, and hold the PIC responsible for the safe handling on the ground. In fact, never mind, they hold him/her responsible for ALL of it. You can work the radios...sorry!
Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls :twisted:
Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic. :roll:
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digits_
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

GRK2 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:13 am
digits_ wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 am


Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.


Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls :twisted:
Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic. :roll:
I'm sure you've also seen FO's screw up approaches and landings in such a way that if you didn't take control the plane would have done something unsafe/illegal or get damaged? Does that mean FOs shoulddn't be allowed to fly approaches or land? Hell, it's your tukkas on the line, why let them do anything at all.

In you complex taxi example, wouldn't it be better if you were the one directing the FO to go while you are watching your charts and the taxi signs with the FO at the controls? Or would you have your FO deal with the complex part and have him direct you where to go? Or do you just do it all yourself because at one time you've had an FO who couldn't handle the taxi?

There are plenty of operators that allow their FOs by default to taxi the big jets, wthout any incidents. If you/your company can't deal with that, it is more a sign of the lack of training quality on the company's side, or the lack of ability on the captain's side. I find it highly unlikely that every FO in your company would be incapable of performing a safe taxi.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by GRK2 »

digits_ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:28 am
GRK2 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:13 am
digits_ wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 am


Sure, but that is no argument for why FO's can't taxi during CAVOK days.


Someone needs more instructor time to be comfortable with someone else manipulating the controls :twisted:
Actually I AM one. You wouldn't believe what I've seen when it comes to "driving" a heavy wide body on the ground. In ANY weather... So that puts an end to your CAVOK days theory. Add in the weather side and it gets even worse. So if it's my tukkas that's gonna get booted, even if you are allowed to taxi, I'll thank you to hand over control. At a reasonable speed please. Let's not even try to talk about foreign airports with complicated clearances in mangled english, or closer to home, ORD or JFK etc. F*ck up a turn or get lost and you're in for a treat! As for that last comment? HAhahahahahahahaha...there, ya happy? You got a laugh. Fantastic. :roll:
I'm sure you've also seen FO's screw up approaches and landings in such a way that if you didn't take control the plane would have done something unsafe/illegal or get damaged? Does that mean FOs shoulddn't be allowed to fly approaches or land? Hell, it's your tukkas on the line, why let them do anything at all.

In you complex taxi example, wouldn't it be better if you were the one directing the FO to go while you are watching your charts and the taxi signs with the FO at the controls? Or would you have your FO deal with the complex part and have him direct you where to go? Or do you just do it all yourself because at one time you've had an FO who couldn't handle the taxi?

There are plenty of operators that allow their FOs by default to taxi the big jets, wthout any incidents. If you/your company can't deal with that, it is more a sign of the lack of training quality on the company's side, or the lack of ability on the captain's side. I find it highly unlikely that every FO in your company would be incapable of performing a safe taxi.
I have seen FO's and Captains make a mess out of many simple and not so simple things. You made my point. If I have to take control then I take control. It doesn't mean we all can't learn from it. Can you do me a favour? (I'm pretty busy) Tell me who are the plenty of operators who let First Officers taxi by default? If there's no tiller on that side, then no taxi. If it's me who gets in the poop...you get it. In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

GRK2 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?
About as much time as the majority of European FOs who do get to taxi. It's funny to see what people are capable of when you train them properly.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by GRK2 »

digits_ wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:18 pm
GRK2 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm
In addition, and this should be noted, when you get that heavy jet Captain job overseas...guess how much time your FO might have?
About as much time as the majority of European FOs who do get to taxi. It's funny to see what people are capable of when you train them properly.
You still haven't answered my question about who lets their FO's taxi. Let's add another one: Which widebody European carriers even have tillers on the RHS? Of the various 380's, 747 variants, 330's, 340's, 777's, 787's, etc. You can bleat on and on about training if you want, it still doesn't release the PIC from the responsibility. How much time exactly does that Euro FO have anyway? Where I work we have hundreds of them who never got to taxi. Are you trying to obtuse on purpose?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

250 hours FOs in Europe taxi at Brussels Airlines, KLM and British Airways. That was the situation 4 years ago. I doubt it has changed in those years.

If they can do it, there is no reason Canadian carriers can't do it.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ahramin »

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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Hangry »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:58 am
250 hours FOs in Europe taxi at Brussels Airlines, KLM and British Airways. That was the situation 4 years ago. I doubt it has changed in those years.

If they can do it, there is no reason Canadian carriers can't do it.
I think someone has a bit of 3 bar syndrome. Are you really dying to taxi around?
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by pualani-mapleleaf »

Airlines where FO’s taxi as SOP, if PF;

Singapore Airlines
British Airways
KLM
Jetstar
Air France
Cathay Pacific
Dragonair
Japan Airlines
All Nippon Airways
Emirates
Qatar Airways
Qantas
Air New Zealand
Easyjet
Atlas Air
Nippon Cargo

There may be/probably are more, but the above list are the ones I am 100% positive of.

Aircraft that come standard/stock delivered with tillers on both sides; B747/B777/B787/A319/320/321/330/340/350/380. Not even an option to have delivered withOUT a tiller on the right side.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by complexintentions »

*sigh*

One can play with the semantics of "SOP", but as ex-EK I can assure you that all handling of the aircraft is still at captain's discretion. In the air and on the ground.

EK isn't the greatest example though, because until recent years the experience requirements to join were very high and I had virtually no trust issues with FO's.

In Asia, it was SOP for the FO to NEVER taxi. Agree or disagree, that was the company policy.

In Europe, FO's are allowed to taxi, but the comments about "proper training" making it A-OK made me laugh. Flown with plenty of ex-RYR and the like and no, I don't let them taxi usually. There are some very sharp operators, but a whole lot more that have a greatly inflated opinion of their own ability. Since that information isn't written on one's forehead, I'm pretty leery to automatically give control. It usually becomes apparently quite quickly who can be trusted and who is all hat, no cattle.

As I said, ultimately it's the CA who has to wear the final responsibility, so if he/she doesn't feel like risking an unknown quantity then don't take it personally and do what you like once you're in the left seat.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:20 pm
*sigh*

One can play with the semantics of "SOP", but as ex-EK I can assure you that all handling of the aircraft is still at captain's discretion. In the air and on the ground.

....

As I said, ultimately it's the CA who has to wear the final responsibility, so if he/she doesn't feel like risking an unknown quantity then don't take it personally and do what you like once you're in the left seat.
Back to the 60s! Damn that multi crew stuff, don't touch the plane because the captain doesn't feel like it! Those damn youngsters and their fancy multi crew concepts, back in my day ... :wink:
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by infiniteregulus »

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do? :rolleyes:

If you can fly the airplane, you can taxi the airplane. Then a caveat exists, which it does in all flight regimes, to allow the captain to take control (or the FO take control from the captain) :lol:
[obviously all company SOP limited - as they're the ones with the true liability]
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ahramin »

In order to put things in perspective, it's useful to read these comments while keeping in mind that most Captain positions are based on seniority.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by complexintentions »

infiniteregulus wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:04 pm
By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do? :rolleyes:
I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

I know that offends some of the gentler sensitive types who see things as their “right”, but...nope! :mrgreen:
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:54 pm
infiniteregulus wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:04 pm
By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do? :rolleyes:
I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.
WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by Hangry »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:07 pm
complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:54 pm
infiniteregulus wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:04 pm
By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do? :rolleyes:
I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.
WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.
Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know :goodman:
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by goingnowherefast »

There's many times I wish I could let the FO taxi. An obstacle on the right, that they can see much easier being a good one. Pretty hard for me though when there's only 1 tiller.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:21 pm


Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know :goodman:
I have more time in the left seat than the right, and I've never treated my FOs like that. Even the "bad" ones. It's amazing what you can achieve by talking to people and trusting them. You should try it some day.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by ant_321 »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:21 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:07 pm
complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:54 pm


I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.
WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.
Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know :goodman:
I sit in the “big chair” and agree with digits 100%. I have never not let an FO be PF nor did I ever have a captain not allow me to be PF when I was an FO. Some of you guys must be a blast to fly with. :roll:
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by complexintentions »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:07 pm
complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:54 pm
infiniteregulus wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:04 pm
By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do? :rolleyes:
I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.
WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.
Lol

Having a hissy fit definitely leaves you doing the paperwork.

And yeah, the other crew members DO “owe” the captain something, just as I do them, which is earned trust. Of course a measure is given from them being current and qualified but only a fool would assume equal ability from everyone sitting next to them. The “everyone is equal” crowd may shed tears at that terrifying truism, but I really don’t care.

The difference is, if I make a mistake, I have to answer for it. If you make a mistake, I have to answer for that too. Hence I do not operate by making assumptions. That’s not “willy-nilly doing everything”, quite the opposite.
If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator
No thanks, I’m not waiting until it gets to that point. That’s not what the people behind us paid for.

Note I never said anything about non-operational issues, but they do tend to give some clues. Do your job competently and there will be no problems. Keep trying to convince me how awesome and “equal” you are and you’ll be running the clipboard like a champ. It’s not punishment, just common sense. As you say, it’s not a check flight and I’m not here to conduct training.

I think Hangry has nailed it. No offense intended, but get a command, get some decent experience in it, and perhaps your perspective will change.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by digits_ »

I'm beginning to understand why pilots need annual multi crew and CRM training.

So tell me, how can an FO prove to you he can fly without flying the airplane? How can he prove to you he can taxi the plane without taxiing the plane? I'm honestly curious how you make that determination.
complexintentions wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:50 pm
Keep trying to convince me how awesome and “equal” you are and you’ll be running the clipboard like a champ. It’s not punishment, just common sense. As you say, it’s not a check flight and I’m not here to conduct training.
An FO who wants to follow the SOPs and fly every other leg, or whatever the standard is at your company, and/or taxi as per SOPs is not trying to convince you how awesome he is or to claim he is equal to you. He's just trying to do his job. If you interfer with the SOPs and deem your FO unworthy of being PF without a reason other than you don't initially trust him, you are actually creating extra unnecessary hoops for everyone.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by infiniteregulus »

I've sat in both seats and can say without a doubt that working with a self-righteous air god makes for the WORST work week. Bad FOs are just as likely as bad Capts. But when these bad Capts are so concerned about their own skin, it makes for a downright dangerous cockpit. CRM is crucial, and yes, trust is definitely needed, on both sides.
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Re: FO taxiing

Post by RB211 »

Well this sure drifted sideways!

To answer the initial question, many airlines SOPs include F/O taxiing. They may include certain limitations based on environmental and infrastructure circumstance.

If it is part of SOP then it should have been part of the training program so a level of competence has been demonstrated prior to release to the line (hopefully! 😉).

Trust is a significant part of our job. Not “blind” trust, but a “base level” of trust which then can be extended, or reduced, as appropriate. As pilots, we trust that the many folks involved in getting the aircraft safely to the point of departure have done their jobs. That includes the other pilot(s) we’re working with on a given day.

As always, the Captain bears final responsibility and can delegate, or not, as they see fit. Some have a harder time doing so than others.
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