FO taxiing

[complexintentions]

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do?

I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

I know that offends some of the gentler sensitive types who see things as their “right”, but...nope!

[digits_]

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do?

I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.

[Hangry]

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do?

I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.

Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know

[goingnowherefast]

There's many times I wish I could let the FO taxi. An obstacle on the right, that they can see much easier being a good one. Pretty hard for me though when there's only 1 tiller.

[digits_]

Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know

I have more time in the left seat than the right, and I've never treated my FOs like that. Even the "bad" ones. It's amazing what you can achieve by talking to people and trusting them. You should try it some day.

[ant_321]

I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.

Definitely some 3 bar syndrome. You’ll get the big chair one day. Then you’ll know

I sit in the “big chair” and agree with digits 100%. I have never not let an FO be PF nor did I ever have a captain not allow me to be PF when I was an FO. Some of you guys must be a blast to fly with.

[complexintentions]

By that logic, how do these captains trust ANYTHING the FOs do?

I don’t do anything in the aircraft based solely on “trust”, if someone demonstrates competence - and the vast majority do - they’re welcome to handle the aircraft as PF. Entitlement earns you the paperwork.

CRM and MCC isn’t about blindly trusting the stranger assigned to you for a pairing, in fact I would say that it’s exactly the opposite.

WTF? Newsflash: the FO owes you nothing. He doesn't have to prove or demonstrate *anything* to you. Flying with a captain is not a check ride. You are supposed to follow the SOPs. And yes, that fourth bar gives you the right to deviate if there is a reason for it, or improvise for situations not covered by the SOPs. Just willy nilly deciding you are going to do everything because the FO didn't prove his competence to you is not one of those situations.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator, if that. And you should probably contact the chief pilot and training department and have them deal with the incompetent FO.

If the SOPs tell you that the FO can taxi, and you decide you won't because you don't like how he ironed his uniform or how he addresses you or how he looks or whatever non-operational reason, then YOU are the problem, not the FO.

Start from a position of trust: he passed the training, he got the rating and the license. He is qualified until proven otherwise.

An attitude like the one you describe just kills the multi crew cooperation. If that's truly how you operatoe, maybe single pilot operations would be more your thing.

Lol

Having a hissy fit definitely leaves you doing the paperwork.

And yeah, the other crew members DO “owe” the captain something, just as I do them, which is earned trust. Of course a measure is given from them being current and qualified but only a fool would assume equal ability from everyone sitting next to them. The “everyone is equal” crowd may shed tears at that terrifying truism, but I really don’t care.

The difference is, if I make a mistake, I have to answer for it. If you make a mistake, I have to answer for that too. Hence I do not operate by making assumptions. That’s not “willy-nilly doing everything”, quite the opposite.

If the FO screws up the taxi or is unable to fly the airplane within limitations or has a severe lack of knowledge about the procedures or airplane, THEN you can do everything yourself and turn him into a flap operator

No thanks, I’m not waiting until it gets to that point. That’s not what the people behind us paid for.

Note I never said anything about non-operational issues, but they do tend to give some clues. Do your job competently and there will be no problems. Keep trying to convince me how awesome and “equal” you are and you’ll be running the clipboard like a champ. It’s not punishment, just common sense. As you say, it’s not a check flight and I’m not here to conduct training.

I think Hangry has nailed it. No offense intended, but get a command, get some decent experience in it, and perhaps your perspective will change.

[digits_]

I'm beginning to understand why pilots need annual multi crew and CRM training.

So tell me, how can an FO prove to you he can fly without flying the airplane? How can he prove to you he can taxi the plane without taxiing the plane? I'm honestly curious how you make that determination.

Keep trying to convince me how awesome and “equal” you are and you’ll be running the clipboard like a champ. It’s not punishment, just common sense. As you say, it’s not a check flight and I’m not here to conduct training.

An FO who wants to follow the SOPs and fly every other leg, or whatever the standard is at your company, and/or taxi as per SOPs is not trying to convince you how awesome he is or to claim he is equal to you. He's just trying to do his job. If you interfer with the SOPs and deem your FO unworthy of being PF without a reason other than you don't initially trust him, you are actually creating extra unnecessary hoops for everyone.

[infiniteregulus]

I've sat in both seats and can say without a doubt that working with a self-righteous air god makes for the WORST work week. Bad FOs are just as likely as bad Capts. But when these bad Capts are so concerned about their own skin, it makes for a downright dangerous cockpit. CRM is crucial, and yes, trust is definitely needed, on both sides.

[RB211]

Well this sure drifted sideways!

To answer the initial question, many airlines SOPs include F/O taxiing. They may include certain limitations based on environmental and infrastructure circumstance.

If it is part of SOP then it should have been part of the training program so a level of competence has been demonstrated prior to release to the line (hopefully! ).

Trust is a significant part of our job. Not “blind” trust, but a “base level” of trust which then can be extended, or reduced, as appropriate. As pilots, we trust that the many folks involved in getting the aircraft safely to the point of departure have done their jobs. That includes the other pilot(s) we’re working with on a given day.

As always, the Captain bears final responsibility and can delegate, or not, as they see fit. Some have a harder time doing so than others.

[goingnowherefast]

Do you trust the cabin crew with their duties? Do you trust the mechanics? How about dispatchers, ATC, groomers, gate agents, ramp staff, etc.

It doesn't take long to figure out the capabilities of the other pilot. It's part of the captain's job to allow the FO to learn and expand their abilities. Certainly don't let them overspeed the airframe, or bang a wing tip. But to discuss deviations from the ideal, and safely learn. It's a team effort, the FO has a baseline of training and experience. Some experiences are different than that of the captain. Sometimes the FO will even have better ideas than he captain! If FOs are trained to taxi, and the SOPs allow it, then it's no different than in flight.

[infiniteregulus]

Also a valid point ^
Many times the FO can have more experience on type than the Capt. Could have a senior, high-time and experienced FO sitting for lifestyle with a junior brand new Capt. Just because there's 3 stripes on their shoulder DOES NOT immediately rule them out as capable or trustworthy, and sure as hell not obliged to demonstrate flawless performance to an overzealous 'pilot in the left seat'.
I totally agree though - if ONGOING performance is consistently below par, then yes absolutely, limit the duties. Goes both ways. Could be a shit pilot or even just an off day - people have lives too (though they should be self-diagnostically professional and call sick in that case). The key is communication and working together as a team. Strengths and weaknesses. Authoritarian Commander Hitler in the left seat with nerves shot and a paranoid, uneasy attitude....dangerous CRM and terrible leadership qualities in the normal environment.

[complexintentions]

Trust is a significant part of our job. Not “blind” trust, but a “base level” of trust which then can be extended, or reduced, as appropriate. As pilots, we trust that the many folks involved in getting the aircraft safely to the point of departure have done their jobs. That includes the other pilot(s) we’re working with on a given day.

^ ^
This.

And some context for my outlook might help soothe the more agitated posters. (Godwin's Law? ) I've worked in companies where the experience in the right seat was very high, ones where it was very low. Places with massive cultural differences from Canada, in places where English isn't the primary spoken language, and SOP's that were 180 degree different from one company to the next.

I've always respected both SOP's and colleague's abilities, but it's also true I've had to babysit pretty closely at times. That's fine in some ways, it's partly why the paycheque is higher. But if it's my signature that goes in the logbook, of course I take a defensive position at all times, because that's what I'm defending, not my FO's feelings. 99% of the time there's no issue whatsoever, but I still have to guard against the 1%. I can't tell if someone is "a shit pilot or just an off day", as infiniteregulus puts it it, hence I adopt a healthy skepticism to identify the potential threat. When did this become a bad thing in aviation? It's pretty drama queen to characterize that as "paranoid" or "uneasy". And the reverse is true, any of my colleagues are free to assess my performance at any time, hell I expect it!

Perhaps if I only flew with other Canuckistanians for my entire career I could afford the luxury of a more complacent attitude. But one thing's for certain: if I catch a whiff of entitlement - and the stench is strong is several posts here - it raises red flags, instantly.

digits_, I suggest in your next CRM recurrent you ask the instructor to do a section on the phenomena "excessive professional courtesy" and the accidents its caused.

Until then, fly safe and don't taxi above 10 knots in the 90 degree turns!

[FADEC]

I was a Training Captain for nearly twenty years.
On aircraft with no tiller, I would have the F/O exit the runway if the taxiway could be negotiated with rudder pedal steering.

On aircraft with a tiller on the right side, (when training F/O's) I would get the F/O to taxi after the appropriate checks were done on departure, and when appropriate on arrival; clearing the runway etc.

Most gates were set up to be entered with guidance from the left seat so that wouldn't work.

My point was that if the Captain was incapacitated, or the left tiller failed it shouldn't be the first time the F/O taxied a big airplane.
In my experience, those Captains or Managers who didn't want that to happen were those who were barely competent themselves.

The other point is that taxiing a big airplane is a special skill. The F/O should understand why it is important for both pilots to be paying full attention to taxi instructions and routing as well as having eyes outside the cockpit.
I would encourage F/O's to make sure they were aware of the taxi routing so they could speak up if things were going awry.

[floatplanepilot]

Took me one sector to figure out taxiing with the tiller on the left side. Very different feel from the sim. Of course Murphy's Law, the first maneuver I had to make in the plane was a 180 in confined space and I was a bit agressive nearly knocking over the FAs in the back. Ever since that it's been smooth taxiing.