Try 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Jazz or Sunwing ?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
+1daedalusx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pmTry 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Every 703/704 I’ve been at over the years had my FOs not only financially starving but starving in other ways as well. Respectfully, it appears you’re being bitter and nothing more. Anyone could say negative things about any operation. Maybe Jazz works for some people, doesn’t mean it will for you or I, but many seem to be fine there.daedalusx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pmTry 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
As an FO at Jazz I can say the only negative thing is that I cant pay my bills. Thankfully I got a big line of credit from a previous career.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
That's pretty disturbing. A PROFESSIONAL airline pilot at a leading 705 regional needs to go into debt to pay the bills. No wonder somebody jumped ship to Sunwing after a few months.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Don’t get me wrong... I’m not drinking the “ jazz coolaid”
I’ve see my colleagues paycheques at Jazz and I made more as rampie/ C206 driver. ( with 500TT) The people I know at jazz are in the 3000- 5000 hour realm.. obviously there’s a draw for them to come to Jazz.
I / others disagree on how the new agreement went.. 2 weeks to decide 17 years.. the writing is one that wall..
However, all of this aside,you signed up to do a job and gave a company your word . Don’t join a company with the intention to jump ship..either stay for a year + and turn down SWG .. or don’t take the effing job and take your chances at Sunwing. Doing this screws the pilot group more than we already are and gives companies the ammo they need for things like... bonds!
I’ve see my colleagues paycheques at Jazz and I made more as rampie/ C206 driver. ( with 500TT) The people I know at jazz are in the 3000- 5000 hour realm.. obviously there’s a draw for them to come to Jazz.
I / others disagree on how the new agreement went.. 2 weeks to decide 17 years.. the writing is one that wall..
However, all of this aside,you signed up to do a job and gave a company your word . Don’t join a company with the intention to jump ship..either stay for a year + and turn down SWG .. or don’t take the effing job and take your chances at Sunwing. Doing this screws the pilot group more than we already are and gives companies the ammo they need for things like... bonds!
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
History has shown, every pilot group no matter what association or union or company, has always "effed" over those that come behind them. There is no solidarity in this industry...
Best advise I ever heard was to run your career like a business, cause nobody else is looking out for you and yes I am a cynic
Best advise I ever heard was to run your career like a business, cause nobody else is looking out for you and yes I am a cynic
Gravity always wins
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
The Jazz system is set up to accomplish 2 goals:
- overpay new hire candidates that are under qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
- underpay new hire candidates that are over qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
That may seem like a contradiction in terms but in practice it allows Jazz to hire a significant number of low time First Officers who will have to work at the low pay rates for several years until qualified and competent to pass an upgrade, and it forces qualified pilots to bid the upgrade ASAP to earn a respectable professional pilot wage.
The result of this system is that it is possible for a second year Jazz pilot with the required licence to upgrade and with consistent overtime of 2-3 days per month of overtime make $100,000. Same financial opportunity is available at SWG for a new hire First Officer who picks up overtime. A SWG First Officer must meet very stringent experience requirements for upgrade.
If it was a time of low pilot attrition and slow upgrade progress, Jazz would have a difficult time attracting any new hire pilots with experience. Instead, with record attrition to AC and elsewhere the upgrade window is 12-24 months. That will be the case for the next couple of years but will not continue forever. The Jazz fleet is forecast to shrink and AC hiring rates will taper off after 2020.
Meanwhile SWG has fairly early opportunities for upgrade due to pilot roster expansion but limited attrition rates.
- overpay new hire candidates that are under qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
- underpay new hire candidates that are over qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
That may seem like a contradiction in terms but in practice it allows Jazz to hire a significant number of low time First Officers who will have to work at the low pay rates for several years until qualified and competent to pass an upgrade, and it forces qualified pilots to bid the upgrade ASAP to earn a respectable professional pilot wage.
The result of this system is that it is possible for a second year Jazz pilot with the required licence to upgrade and with consistent overtime of 2-3 days per month of overtime make $100,000. Same financial opportunity is available at SWG for a new hire First Officer who picks up overtime. A SWG First Officer must meet very stringent experience requirements for upgrade.
If it was a time of low pilot attrition and slow upgrade progress, Jazz would have a difficult time attracting any new hire pilots with experience. Instead, with record attrition to AC and elsewhere the upgrade window is 12-24 months. That will be the case for the next couple of years but will not continue forever. The Jazz fleet is forecast to shrink and AC hiring rates will taper off after 2020.
Meanwhile SWG has fairly early opportunities for upgrade due to pilot roster expansion but limited attrition rates.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
THIS!!!
If it were a Ma and Pa shop with a 206 and a King Air that offers decent pay and schedule, then yes, I'd agree jumping ship early is bad. That IS why bonds exist.
However Jazz is a large company with 1500? pilots. Surely management understands and accept that with crap pay, people are gong to leave for better opportunities. Hell, 1st year FOs can't afford to live on the salary. Do they really expect pilots to stay when another company is offering a salary they can live on?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
You are largely correct. This is the system that AC has put in place for the Express carriers by playing them off against each other. Since the training costs are a pass through to AC, the cost of constant turn over is on them. Not ideal is you ask me, but I'm sure the bean counters at AC have done the math and figure they will save overall.Yycjetdriver wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:48 am When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Jazz knows the bottom of the list will continue to turn over indefinitely. With a constant turnover, more pilots never make it to the top pay scales. That is just part of the business now.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 amThe way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pmA first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 amThe way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.FOD_Vacuum wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pmPlease stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pmA first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
I don't think anyone is trying to justify the FO pay. The majority of post-2015 hires would place correcting FO pay at the top of their priority list, but we have to be pragmatic. The pay is still in-line with other mainstream regionals. Again, why apply if you don't like the pay? Economies of supply and demand would eventually call for increased salaries if more people said no, but Jazz sure isn't having trouble filling ground schools.
As for those arguing that anyone who voted yes for MOS4 did so out of fear, all I can say is that it's extremely easy to hide behind the guise that voting no would've somehow helped the next generation of pilots. I personally find this mindset totally illogical. There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups. After what happened in 2010/2012/2015, I doubt Calin would've let us take the wheel now. What we would've then seen is a greater proportion of pilots going to GGN and Sky in the future, especially post-2025. Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots? Don't get me wrong, I do think there were valid reasons for people to vote no. If you were willing to take the risk, then that's fine. However, don't act like you're all somehow the saviours of the industry by voting no, as you just as easily could've fucked over the next generation of pilots too.
As for those arguing that anyone who voted yes for MOS4 did so out of fear, all I can say is that it's extremely easy to hide behind the guise that voting no would've somehow helped the next generation of pilots. I personally find this mindset totally illogical. There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups. After what happened in 2010/2012/2015, I doubt Calin would've let us take the wheel now. What we would've then seen is a greater proportion of pilots going to GGN and Sky in the future, especially post-2025. Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots? Don't get me wrong, I do think there were valid reasons for people to vote no. If you were willing to take the risk, then that's fine. However, don't act like you're all somehow the saviours of the industry by voting no, as you just as easily could've fucked over the next generation of pilots too.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
I’m not justifying anything, you are! I was simple correcting a false post about the wages being below minimum wage.FOD_Vacuum wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pmPlease stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pmA first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
Why do they put up with it? Fact is, the pay is what it is because the pilots ACCEPT it by taking the fn job.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Apparently there is a monetary value to a shot at AC, it’s the exact amount that makes you willing to ACCEPT the “disgustingly low pay” at Jazz.bearitus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 amExactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.FOD_Vacuum wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pmPlease stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
You’re a hypocrite, “I accept it because it gives me a shot at a better paying job”, who exactly is screwing over the next generation of pilots, the ones who protected what they had or the ones who take the crap pay to better their personal future? Ponder that for a bit.
Have you taken responsibility for your actions or is it still someone else’s fault for your shitty pay cheque?
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Show me where else to go then? The option is this, or no job. It's not an option