Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

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Do You Set A Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude In A Radar Controlled Enviroment?

Yes
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No
57
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Total votes: 100

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mantogasrsrwy
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Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

You know you are going to have to change it 30 seconds into the go around when ATC tells you different.
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nightbird
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by nightbird »

The guidance we have in our ops manual is to correct it only in non radar environments
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by nightbird »

The guidance we have in our ops manual is to correct it only in non radar environments
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

make sure you also advise ATC you have added 10' to your minimums.
Its critical !!!!!!
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ctmorawetz
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ctmorawetz »

Our SOPs have us set a corrected Missed Approach altitude, and then adjust it if and when given a different altitude by ATC.
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digits_
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by digits_ »

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:00 am
make sure you also advise ATC you have added 10' to your minimums.
Its critical !!!!!!
The topic is about missed approach altitudes, not minima. In mountainous terrain that can easily be a few hundred feet.
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ant_321
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

I’ve always found the not correcting the missed approach altitude interesting. Everyone goes on and on about it being radar vs non radar but nobody has ever been able to show me where it is written that you don’t need to correct it if you are in a radar environment. I’ve flown into airports with radar in really cold temps where not adding a correction would have had you pretty low to be bombing around in IMC.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

Temp comp is the safest course of action. All IFR altitudes during the approach FAF, MDA, and Missed Approach Altitude is to be corrected. As you fly from warm to cold air, your altimeter reads too high—you are lower than your altimeter indicates.

The only time you don't temp comp is when flying on a radar vectoring altitude assigned by ATC. You must fly the altitude accepted in the clearance.

During a GoAround I would fly the temp comped altitude and advice ATC when able. From there ATC may issue a different altitude.
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young grasshopper
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by young grasshopper »

It is an ATC assigned altitude in a radar controlled environment. If one were to cold weather correct a MA altitude, should we start cold weather correcting a SID altitude as well (rhetorical)?
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ant_321
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

young grasshopper wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:08 pm
It is an ATC assigned altitude in a radar controlled environment. If one were to cold weather correct a MA altitude, should we start cold weather correcting a SID altitude as well (rhetorical)?
That’s fine to say but where is that written? How is it an ATC assigned altitude if they don’t say anything?
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losercruiser
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by losercruiser »

If it's above MSA I don't correct. If I'm going missed in Terrace I'm probably going to correct. It's also not towered.

If I'm going missed in YUL and it's -20° I'm flying the published.
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Donald
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by Donald »

Why rely on an aviation forum?

Go to RAC 9.17.1:
With respect to altitude corrections, the following procedures apply:
1. IFR assigned altitudes may be either accepted or refused. Refusal in this case is based upon the pilot’s assessment of temperature effect on obstacle clearance.
2. IFR assigned altitudes accepted by a pilot should not be adjusted to compensate for cold temperatures, i.e. if a pilot accepts “maintain 3 000”, an altitude correction should not be applied to 3 000 ft.
3. Radar vectoring altitudes assigned by ATC are temperature compensated and require no corrective action by pilots.
4. When altitude corrections are applied to a published FAF crossing altitude, procedure turn or missed approach altitude, pilots should advise ATC how much of a correction is to be applied.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

In mountainous terrain, temp correct the MSA. If the temperature corrected MSA is higher than the Missed Approach Altitude, use the corrected MSA and advise ATC. In non-mountainous terrain, you don’t have to correct it.
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by co-joe »

To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

co-joe wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:02 am
To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
In non-mountainous regions, you don’t have to correct anything above altitudes inside the FAF so why would you have to correct that? If you are worried about obstacle clearance in mountainous regions, if the corrected MSA is below the Missed Approach Altitude, why would you correct? You know you are safe.
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ant_321
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:56 am
co-joe wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:02 am
To me, the reason to correct the MAP alt is for comm failure. In any radar controlled airspace you're never going to get the publish missed. If you call in the missed, they will give you an altitude, but if your radios shit the bed at that precise instant, you need to CYA, (and the A's of the people behind you). Why would you not calculate it? Laziness?
In non-mountainous regions, you don’t have to correct anything above altitudes inside the FAF so why would you have to correct that? If you are worried about obstacle clearance in mountainous regions, if the corrected MSA is below the Missed Approach Altitude, why would you correct? You know you are safe.
Where is that written?
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losercruiser
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by losercruiser »

It's called logic and airmanship
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
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ant_321
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by ant_321 »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:36 pm
The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
Interesting. Now why can’t TC just copy and paste that page and put it in a manual somewhere?
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Ironman2909
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by Ironman2909 »

ant_321 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:06 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:36 pm
The civilian rules are pretty vague. It only states that in conditions of “extreme” cold temperature, all altitudes should be corrected. What about in not “extreme” cold temperature but below 0? Where is the transition to “extreme”?

The military rules are more definitive. Read page 183 of the GPH204A. https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... Canada.pdf.
Interesting. Now why can’t TC just copy and paste that page and put it in a manual somewhere?
Always asked myself the same question! In the RCAF, it was simple..... you follow the rules in the GPH204 and they make sense! When I came to AC and asked a checker what they ment by temp correcting the minimums when OAT is at or below 0C on approach plate..... because I couldn't find a clear and simple answer in any civilian rules not even the AIM! The reply was "you correct the whole plate". I think he saw in my face the " You gotta be joking..right? ". I must say that he looked puzzled when I showed him what we were doing in the Air Force.
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by co-joe »

losercruiser wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:37 pm
It's called logic and airmanship
Exactly.
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nynybear
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by nynybear »

The Missed Approach Altitude is an AT constraint, therefore in a radar environment flying to a corrected Missed Approach Altitude could result in a loss of separation and should not be done. In an emergency and/or loss of comms the terrain clearance takes precedence so have the corrected altitude available for that rare scenario. If operating in a non-radar (or non-ADS in the future) then correct and fly it only if it is below the applicable corrected MSA.

Happy flying!
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by gonnabeapilot »

nynybear wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:18 am
The Missed Approach Altitude is an AT constraint, therefore in a radar environment flying to a corrected Missed Approach Altitude could result in a loss of separation and should not be done. In an emergency and/or loss of comms the terrain clearance takes precedence so have the corrected altitude available for that rare scenario. If operating in a non-radar (or non-ADS in the future) then correct and fly it only if it is below the applicable corrected MSA.

Happy flying!
Where is it written that all missed approach altitudes are exclusively air traffic constraints? If it is not every single missed approach altitude how is a pilot supposed to know whether the missed approach altitude was selected for air traffic or terrain reasons? There are obstacles present in all environments, not just in mountainous terrain. These obstacles don't magically disappear because the aircraft is operating in a radar environment. As PIC your duty is to protecting your passengers, not making the life of a controller easier.

RAC 9.17.1 is pretty clear. You are required to correct the charted missed approach altitude and you are required to inform ATC of the correction. In terms or airmanship, one of the first things you're going to do in a missed approach is communicate to ATC that you're in the missed approach. Adding "climbing to 5200, temperature corrected" takes an extra second. If ATC doesn't want you there because of air traffic concerns they will assign you a radar safe missed approach altitude. If you enter a lost comms scenario and can't inform ATC you're meant to squak 7600 and guaranteed ATC will be clearing all air traffic out of your way until they figure out exactly what you're doing. If after all of that you're still concerned about traffic TCAS provides an extra layer of protection against traffic conflicts. Temperature correction is your only layer of protection for terrain avoidance.

The only real reason people ignore the instructions in RAC 9.17.1 is laziness, pure and simple. Aside from the military instructions posted here (an interesting read) there is nothing in black and white that absolves a pilot from doing it. Talking about airmanship or ATC concerns is vague at best and based solely on some made up opinion about what should be right. Take the extra ten seconds, correct the altitude. It won't kill you but not doing it might.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by AuxBatOn »

gonnabeapilot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:48 am
Where is it written that all missed approach altitudes are exclusively air traffic constraints? If it is not every single missed approach altitude how is a pilot supposed to know whether the missed approach altitude was selected for air traffic or terrain reasons?
Well, if the missed approach altitude is above the MSA,
that’s a pretty good indication...
gonnabeapilot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:48 am
RAC 9.17.1 is pretty clear.
Clear? What is the definition of “extreme cold temperature”?
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flyingvinnie
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Re: Cold Weather Corrected Missed Approach Altitude

Post by flyingvinnie »

Pretty clearly explained in the CAP.

It’s not if you’re in a radar environment, BUT on radar vectors.
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