Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

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Woop_de_doo
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Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by Woop_de_doo » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:52 pm

Does anyone know when they are going to update and implement proper rest/fatigue rules.

It is amazing how fast they can get passenger rights set up yet we pilots, with all these high paid unions, can’t get proper rest rules.

Aviation in Canada...
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:09 pm

Cause the politicians are happy to be seen approving something the general public will like...passenger rights.

Politicians don't particularly care about fatigue because the general public hasn't seen anybody die yet.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by rookiepilot » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:17 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:09 pm
Cause the politicians are happy to be seen approving something the general public will like...passenger rights.

Politicians don't particularly care about fatigue because the general public hasn't seen anybody die yet.

They will.

One of these days won't be a stick save at 50 feet....AKA SFO
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by atpilot » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:33 pm

Companies are in dire need of pilots. The last thing they need is a set of rules that requires hiring more pilots. And you’re right, nothing will be done until the politicians have to explain a smoking hole in the ground.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:44 pm

That's why regulators are regulators, the world over.

They don't anticipate, only react.

Drones.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by teacher » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:50 am

Fatigue rules for pilots that increase cost and decrease flexibility do not buy votes.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by whipline » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:56 am

Watch what you wish for. The EU regs aren’t much better then Canada. And it takes way more time to figure out. Shorter days also lead to more days worked and less days off.

What do you think needs changing? I think all we need is lowering duty day length with increased sectors and limiting night time duty.

Define unforeseen properly and beef up some definitions.

Stop schedules going from day to night then night to day.

From someone who works in Europe every summer I can tell you they aren’t much better. And it’s a pain the ass looking it all up.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by losercruiser » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:37 pm

Honestly for AC, fix the reserve rules and make it 3 crew/4 crew the same as the Americans for overseas. 8 hours and 12 hours for flight time. Minimum 24 hours at the hotel layover times for widebody flying would be nice too, and at least 12-13 for the the NBs

The rest is fine.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by Marinth » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:03 am

whipline wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:56 am
Watch what you wish for. The EU regs aren’t much better then Canada. And it takes way more time to figure out. Shorter days also lead to more days worked and less days off.

What do you think needs changing? I think all we need is lowering duty day length with increased sectors and limiting night time duty.

Define unforeseen properly and beef up some definitions.

Stop schedules going from day to night then night to day.

From someone who works in Europe every summer I can tell you they aren’t much better. And it’s a pain the ass looking it all up.
In the US that's basically all it is, plus some reasonable limits on reserve days so you can't be on reserve from 4am to 8pm, then get a call at 8pm for a full duty day. I go on call at 4am typically which means I have to be finished any duty assigned by 6pm. This is by far the most important change vs what Canada currently has. The shortened duty days on really early starts is big too.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by losercruiser » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:59 pm

Marinth wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:03 am
whipline wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:56 am
Watch what you wish for. The EU regs aren’t much better then Canada. And it takes way more time to figure out. Shorter days also lead to more days worked and less days off.

What do you think needs changing? I think all we need is lowering duty day length with increased sectors and limiting night time duty.

Define unforeseen properly and beef up some definitions.

Stop schedules going from day to night then night to day.

From someone who works in Europe every summer I can tell you they aren’t much better. And it’s a pain the ass looking it all up.
In the US that's basically all it is, plus some reasonable limits on reserve days so you can't be on reserve from 4am to 8pm, then get a call at 8pm for a full duty day. I go on call at 4am typically which means I have to be finished any duty assigned by 6pm. This is by far the most important change vs what Canada currently has. The shortened duty days on really early starts is big too.
At Jazz if you were on reserve from say 3AM to 5PM, you needed to CHECK IN by 5pm or you were done. So if you got called at 3:01 you didn't have to go. If they did assign you duty you had to be finished duty no later than 20 hours after the start of your RAP. So if you got called at 2:55PM for a 4:55PM check in you had to be done and checked out by 11PM. 20 hours after your 3AM reserve start period.

At AC, we get fucked around. In YVR reserve is 6:45AM to 10:45PM but you can be called all the way till 10:45 for a 2 hour future check in. If you get called for a delayed Sydney at say 10:40PM you have to check in by 12:40AM. Which is absolutely bonkers.
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Last edited by losercruiser on Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by florch » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:02 pm

whipline wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:56 am
Watch what you wish for. The EU regs aren’t much better then Canada. And it takes way more time to figure out. Shorter days also lead to more days worked and less days off.

What do you think needs changing? I think all we need is lowering duty day length with increased sectors and limiting night time duty.

Define unforeseen properly and beef up some definitions.

Stop schedules going from day to night then night to day.

From someone who works in Europe every summer I can tell you they aren’t much better. And it’s a pain the ass looking it all up.
+1
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by confusedalot » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:25 am

As the first posters indicated, this is not about what is right or just, or makes sense, it's all about what looks good to the media for the purpose of maintaining votes and therefore political power. No traction in making things more livable for a comparatively small group of working stiffs. The public does not care. So politicos won't act.

The political class is a whole different animal.
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by GhostRider6 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:33 am

The general public has boundaries, agency Sense of self worth bordering on entitlement.

Pilots on that other hands.. many of us lack boundaries and self worth and sign self deprecating contracts amidst unprecedented hiring . 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:32 pm

I've found in general, employers neither respect nor understand the effects of fatigue. Bosses/managers sometimes do, but HR and the C-suite do not. Sometimes they simply don't care, but I've found (and this is only my experience) that most of the time, they just don't understand. Whether or not my experience is translatable to the aviation industry, I'm not sure, so I may be totally off base here.

I know a thing or two about this, coming from I.T. I've worked some pretty colossally shitty on-call rotations. The obvious difference, of course, being that fatigue in the I.T. industry doesn't kill people, it just kills families and relationships. I've at least gotten to a point in I.T. where I can name my conditions and limits for on-call work, but that took 10 years, if not 15.

Generally it's good now, as there's a shortage of I.T. people, and lots of work, so it's an employee's market. But it wasn't always that way. We have no union, and at least in Ontario, are exempt from the Employment Standards Act regulations on overtime and hours of work.

Sorry, I'm not trying to make this about me. Just trying to draw a comparison. Employers either don't care about fatigue or don't understand it, until they have a reason to. In I.T. these days that reason is a good job market and lack of talent (and ergo to some extent, overly entitled employees), but in aviation I don't even see unions advocating for this (they might be, but I haven't seen it). My hope is that a better job market will help - either that, or regulation, like the trucking industry has. Well, that or a smoking hole in the Earth filled with innocent victims. Preferably not the latter.

Either way, something or somebody will have to shout loud and clear to make people listen. Be it unions, pilots, backbench MPs, forward thinking employers, or the families of innocent victims, something or somebody will have to shout this issue from the treetops first. It's the only way I've ever seen this change happen.

It's near impossible to make someone understand something, when their job depends on them not understanding it (can't recall who I'm quoting here). The answer I think lies in making people's jobs depend on understanding the causes and effects of pilot fatigue.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:35 pm

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:32 pm
My hope is that a better job market will help - either that, or regulation, like the trucking industry has. Well, that or a smoking hole in the Earth filled with innocent victims. Preferably not the latter.
New rules announced December 12 2018 with an embarrassingly long implementation timeline. Albet still crap, the new rules are better than the "4th world" fatigue regs we have until implementation actually happens.

Already had the smoking hole fulled with innocent victims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407. Oh right, those weren't Canadian victims. Despite it happening so close to our border, so nobody gave a shit up here.

Thankfully this one had no innocent victims, but was a very close call that people and politicians have forgotten about very quickly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_759
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:32 pm
Either way, something or somebody will have to shout loud and clear to make people listen. Be it unions, pilots, backbench MPs, forward thinking employers, or the families of innocent victims, something or somebody will have to shout this issue from the treetops first. It's the only way I've ever seen this change happen.
ACPA, ALPA, Unifor, Teamsters and IAM already did this: https://saferskies.ca/who-we-are
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:32 pm
It's near impossible to make someone understand something, when their job depends on them not understanding it (can't recall who I'm quoting here). The answer I think lies in making people's jobs depend on understanding the causes and effects of pilot fatigue.
Haha, I like that one. Intentional ignorance is wonderful...
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Re: Why can they get passenger rights but no proper rest and fatigue rules?

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:05 am

losercruiser wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:59 pm
Marinth wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:03 am
whipline wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:56 am
Watch what you wish for. The EU regs aren’t much better then Canada. And it takes way more time to figure out. Shorter days also lead to more days worked and less days off.

What do you think needs changing? I think all we need is lowering duty day length with increased sectors and limiting night time duty.

Define unforeseen properly and beef up some definitions.

Stop schedules going from day to night then night to day.

From someone who works in Europe every summer I can tell you they aren’t much better. And it’s a pain the ass looking it all up.
In the US that's basically all it is, plus some reasonable limits on reserve days so you can't be on reserve from 4am to 8pm, then get a call at 8pm for a full duty day. I go on call at 4am typically which means I have to be finished any duty assigned by 6pm. This is by far the most important change vs what Canada currently has. The shortened duty days on really early starts is big too.
At Jazz if you were on reserve from say 3AM to 5PM, you needed to CHECK IN by 5pm or you were done. So if you got called at 3:01 you didn't have to go. If they did assign you duty you had to be finished duty no later than 20 hours after the start of your RAP. So if you got called at 2:55PM for a 4:55PM check in you had to be done and checked out by 11PM. 20 hours after your 3AM reserve start period.

At AC, we get fucked around. In YVR reserve is 6:45AM to 10:45PM but you can be called all the way till 10:45 for a 2 hour future check in. If you get called for a delayed Sydney at say 10:40PM you have to check in by 12:40AM. Which is absolutely bonkers.
At Encore, it's 12 hour blocks, but you can only work until 16 hours after the start of the block (per day).
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