Everyone’s talking about it...

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Goodman5
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Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Goodman5 »

Pilot experience level across the board in Canada.

“Crazy times”

“Unprecedented”

“Unreal”

“I can’t imagine”

Every shop talk conversation seems to include the quickest upgrade they’ve heard of, the amount of college grads ripping around 705...and the quick progression for every one of us from seat to seat to plane to plane to airline to airline.

At the moment, we’re proving the U.S. wrong for requiring an ATPL for the airlines. (at the moment)

We’re sitting here fat and happy with a never ending stream of 200 hour pilots excited to fly 705 as a first job. Who wouldn’t be.

5 years ago companies were looking for 3000hrs min for a 1900 Captain gig. Now you can command a CRJ with 1500hrs, and no REAL pic time.

What’s with this?? It seems like things are just going faster and faster for everyone (which is great for progression I hear ya) but is there anything being done about the huge lack of experience we’re facing??

We’re assured by our employers that safety is everything. While the country below us with 10x the population has INCREASED their safety margin for pilot experience level.

Is it because we’ve increased training standards? Is it because it’s been working so far without incident?

How many of you have said or heard “it’s going to take a crash before things change here”

Why is that acceptable? And who do we engage to do something about it?
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

How many of you have said or heard “it’s going to take a crash before things change here”
Pretty much anyone working in the industry at the 705 level feels the way in my experience, and the scary thing is a few people I know who are sim instructors at various airlines are saying it too.
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yhz41
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by yhz41 »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:08 pm
How many of you have said or heard “it’s going to take a crash before things change here”
Pretty much anyone working in the industry at the 705 level feels the way in my experience, and the scary thing is a few people I know who are sim instructors at various airlines are saying it too.
The only ones not saying it are the ones who get upgraded at 1500 hours with no actual pic time.
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AirportCoffee
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by AirportCoffee »

Canadian aviation was different back when 3000 hours could barely score you an interview with Jazz. Experienced guys are retiring and the bottom line isn't enough to keep the average where it was back then.

Is experience dropping across the board? Absolutely. Do you think the ever expanding AC and WJ are going to put their plans on hold just because college grads are going straight to 705? Absolutely not.

As long as people, regardless of experience, keep passing PPC's then everything will stay status quo.
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Yes you're not wrong. As long as people pass PPCs and there isn't an accident.

I've heard from a few people that do PIC assessments at Jazz that the standard has in fact dropped and many people who pass now wouldn't have 2-3 years ago. Some people are getting 2-3 chances in a row at the PIC assessment. Couple that with the fact they are flying around with sub 500 hour FOs only compounds the problems. One wintery blizzardy day into Terrace with a 1700 hour Q400 Captain with a poor training record who took 3 attempts at the PIC assesment and a 300 hour FO is when something will happen.

All while we have experienced pilots and ex-regional Captains bidding to do the least amount of work possible because of the compensation structure (RP) at AC.

Can't wait until the house of cards falls apart.
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Goodman5
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Goodman5 »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:48 pm
Yes you're not wrong. As long as people pass PPCs and there isn't an accident.

I've heard from a few people that do PIC assessments at Jazz that the standard has in fact dropped and many people who pass now wouldn't have 2-3 years ago. Some people are getting 2-3 chances in a row at the PIC assessment. Couple that with the fact they are flying around with sub 500 hour FOs only compounds the problems. One wintery blizzardy day into Terrace with a 1700 hour Q400 Captain with a poor training record who took 3 attempts at the PIC assesment and a 300 hour FO is when something will happen.

All while we have experienced pilots and ex-regional Captains bidding to do the least amount of work possible because of the compensation structure (RP) at AC.

Can't wait until the house of cards falls apart.
Exactly.

The writing is on the wall and the big boys are blinded by the fact we’re all good on paper. All good on paper means they’re all covered legally and more money in their pocket.

Ticking time bomb and I don’t hear any one sounding the alarm except for all of us whispering pilots.

Honestly. This is newsworthy.
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co-joe
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by co-joe »

Or maybe flying aeroplanes paved ILS to paved LNAV/ VNAV, isn't as hard as everyone who had to have 5000 hours when they upgraded told us? When the wx goes for shit we have auto land, there are no more NDB or circling approaches, dispatch does the hard part of the job with wx and flight planning, and ordering fuel...
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Why no one in the media cares is beyond me. Someone should send an anonymous email to CBC. But really, would they care?
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

co-joe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:12 pm
Or maybe flying aeroplanes paved ILS to paved LNAV/ VNAV, isn't as hard as everyone who had to have 5000 hours when they upgraded told us? When the wx goes for shit we have auto land, there are no more NDB or circling approaches, dispatch does the hard part of the job with wx and flight planning, and ordering fuel...
Oh I'm sorry are you autolanding in Castlegar and Terrace? Or Torbay and Halifax in a Q400? At night in a snowstorm?

The real worry is Jazz. AC has experience for now... mind you the fact the releif pilots are starting to have more experience that the FO's tells you something is wrong.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

co-joe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:12 pm
dispatch does the hard part of the job with wx and flight planning, and ordering fuel...
Is that the hard part of the job?

Get real!
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98 Corolla
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by 98 Corolla »

No I worked a 705 job where I did my own flight planning, created and filed my own flight plans, did my own weather briefing, calculated my own fuel, and ordered it, and it just felt like something I did sipping coffee in the morning before I started work.
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:07 am
co-joe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:12 pm
dispatch does the hard part of the job with wx and flight planning, and ordering fuel...
Is that the hard part of the job?

Get real!
What is the hardest part then according to you?

If the flight planning is done properly, most scenarios are covered and decision making difficulties are greatly reduced. So if you end up in the snow storm, you can just divert to the flight planned alternate.

Sure you can have weird failures that only an ace might be able to handle. But statistically that doesn't seem to be a problem.
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Hangry
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Hangry »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:52 am
altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:07 am
co-joe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:12 pm
dispatch does the hard part of the job with wx and flight planning, and ordering fuel...
Is that the hard part of the job?

Get real!
What is the hardest part then according to you?

If the flight planning is done properly, most scenarios are covered and decision making difficulties are greatly reduced. So if you end up in the snow storm, you can just divert to the flight planned alternate.

Sure you can have weird failures that only an ace might be able to handle. But statistically that doesn't seem to be a problem.
No way you’ve ever sat left seat.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

I absolutely respect and appreciate a good dispatcher and the important job they do. But it isn't the most difficult job.

The hardest part doesn't have anything to do with ace pilot skills either though.

As Hangry said in his own way, if you don't understand what the hard part of this job is, why we carry ALL the ultimate responsibility when/if those brakes get released and the thrust levers go forward, then I don't think I can explain you and I'm not going to argue with you.
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L39Guy
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by L39Guy »

There are a number of issues that should be considered in this discussion.

The 1500 hour rule implemented in the US following the Colgan Air accident was a political, knee-jerk reaction, a product of the political theatre that aircraft accidents create. Recent evidence of that is the gong show in US Congress with the MAX hearings. If you listened to the Flight Safety Detectives (http://www.flightsafetydetectives.com/) Episode 10 podcasts by two former NTSB investigators, you'll learn that the politicians are not interested in facts or the truth, just 10 second sound bites for the purposes of getting re-elected. Moreover, the 1500 hour rule would not have changed the Colgan Air accident outcome as both pilots had over 1500 hours anyways. The captain had just over 3400 hours and the FO just over 2200 hours.

Like the MAX issue, the politicians miss the real issue - incompetent pilots, particularly the captain in the Colgan Air case and, as we are now learning, the FO in the Atlas Air accident in Houston last year.

It should be remembered that low-time pilots (200 hours) have flown as FO's before in Canada. Specifically, Pacific Western Airlines (PWA) hired them in the late 1960's and early 1970"s and they flew the B737 in some pretty challenging conditions, i.e. the arctic and the mountains of BC. That was done quite successfully.

There is no denying that more experience is better (up to a point) but are 1500 hour captains unsafe at a Jazz or Encore? I would submit that they are not for the following reasons:

- many come from aviation colleges where they get superb training in CRM, decision making, flight management systems, aviation theory, etc.

- they fly well maintained, new and sophisticated aircraft

- with the rare exception of Castlegar, they are flying straight-in approaches (mostly RNAV) with vertical guidance

- both of these organizations have superb training programs for both initial and upgrade training

- Encore for sure and to a large extent Jazz sees new captains going from the right seat to the left seat of the same aircraft type. In other words, they are not both changing aircraft type and upgrading at the same time.

- in addition to being familiar with the aircraft upon which they are getting their first captaincy, they are also very experienced with the route structure and airports they are operating into as they have seen them all many times as FO's.

- particularly with the Dash 8 operation, one is never very far from another airport if there is a problem, i.e. this is not an overseas operation where you could be up to 3 hours or more from an alternate. Short sectors and domestic gives lots of opportunities to get on the ground.

- if, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, the flight operations management of these organizations impress upon new captains that they are not expected to go outside their comfort level, i.e. fly in marginal weather, etc. and that it is ok to pass on a flight or do a go-around, a lot of the risk is mitigated.

In my estimation the real safety risk does not exist at the AC and WJ regional airlines. The greater risk exists at other 705 operators and 703/704 operators that may not have the items listed above. And, indeed, that is where we are seeing the accidents these days in this country.
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Last edited by L39Guy on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

tbaylx
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by tbaylx »

I believe the dropping experience levels are requiring many airlines to have a long hard look at their training curriculums and modify them to take into account the lower experience levels of new hires and upgrades.

A significant portion of lower experience can be made up with better training.
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rudder
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by rudder »

There is a 1500 hour rule in Canada. Difference from the US rule is that in the US the min is 1500 for Part 121 FO. In Canada, it is 1500 for Captain Part 705.

Many seem to have forgotten that AC promoted seniority list pilots to CL65 Captain in the mid-1990’s many of whom had never been in an operating seat of an airliner (laid off second officers) and in some cases largest type flown was a piston Navajo.

Technical competency comes from training and subsequent evaluation against standard. Judgement however cannot be taught. It develops from experience, which comes over time.

The obvious pilot supply shortfall manifested is creating crew experience combinations that most are not used to seeing. It is occurring across all levels of the industry (Part 703/704/705).
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:56 am
digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:52 am
altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:07 am


Is that the hard part of the job?

Get real!
What is the hardest part then according to you?

If the flight planning is done properly, most scenarios are covered and decision making difficulties are greatly reduced. So if you end up in the snow storm, you can just divert to the flight planned alternate.

Sure you can have weird failures that only an ace might be able to handle. But statistically that doesn't seem to be a problem.
No way you’ve ever sat left seat.
How about you answer the question instead of making erroneous assumptions about other posters?

The better the flight planning, the less hassle and problems that happen during the flight.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:45 am
I absolutely respect and appreciate a good dispatcher and the important job they do. But it isn't the most difficult job.

The hardest part doesn't have anything to do with ace pilot skills either though.

As Hangry said in his own way, if you don't understand what the hard part of this job is, why we carry ALL the ultimate responsibility when/if those brakes get released and the thrust levers go forward, then I don't think I can explain you and I'm not going to argue with you.
Right. So nobody defines what it is, yet you all assume you are talking about the same thing.

We are not talking about a trashy 703 op where saying no is the hardest part. You are talking about a decent 705 operation that is highly regulated with a bunch of checks and balances in place.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

I'm starting to question of you are even a pilot.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:57 am
altiplano wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:45 am
I absolutely respect and appreciate a good dispatcher and the important job they do. But it isn't the most difficult job.

The hardest part doesn't have anything to do with ace pilot skills either though.

As Hangry said in his own way, if you don't understand what the hard part of this job is, why we carry ALL the ultimate responsibility when/if those brakes get released and the thrust levers go forward, then I don't think I can explain you and I'm not going to argue with you.
Right. So nobody defines what it is, yet you all assume you are talking about the same thing.

We are not talking about a trashy 703 op where saying no is the hardest part. You are talking about a decent 705 operation that is highly regulated with a bunch of checks and balances in place.
You haven't been there. Don't feel bad...

Do you assert that dispatch is the hardest part?
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

If we ignore unlikely failures, and focus on day to day operations, then for most 703/4/5 operations I would say that flight planning is the area where experience matters most: where can you trust the weather, what are alternates I actually want to go to, what is legal, what is smart etc. If you treat flight planning as a tool, you can cover all likely scenarios.

If you do the bare minimum flight planning ”because you have to”, then the flying itself will be a bit more stressed out if something happens.

So yes, I would consider proper flight planning the hardest part of most pilot jobs. A lot of accidents can be prevented by proper planning.

At the airlines, this planning is done for you. Chances that you would be send into dangerous weather are slim. A lot of the decision making you would need to survive in a shitty medevac job, is done by other people. The lack of experience is comoensated for this way.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

derateNO wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:13 pm
I'm starting to question of you are even a pilot.
digits_ wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:36 am
I am an elektrotechnical (electronics) engineer without experience. I currently am a self employed website developer. Any idea if that would that help ? I thought the work permits were branche specific: eg if I manage to get in the country as a business man/self employed, I wouldn't be allowed to work for a boss. Or am I wrong about this ?
That was a few years back...

I saw you got your Canadian licenses and were hoping for a float job or a northern job after that... did you get one?

Are you flying airliners now?

Or just trolling other guys who are in the seat and know the reality of the job?
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Hahahaha.

Well there you go.

Explains a lot.

Buddy has zero experience or credibility to make assumptions.

I agree the flight planning being done for you helps, but like the other guy higher up said, when I did do it, it was a morning ritual while drinking my coffee and wasn't all that hard.

The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, and all while trying to stay on sked for the day with a 500 hour pilot with you in the right seat. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. If something breaks then the real fun begins. Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

derateNO wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm

The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .
aka: flight planning.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

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