Layoff Numbers

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boeingboy
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by boeingboy »

The US also puts strings on the money, nobody laid off till October, and all destinations continue to get service. It's neatly set up so that no town loses service entirely, and no airline employee goes without a paycheque before they go into the voting booth in November. But after the election, it'll be a no holds barred list of layoffs and reality starts to sink in.

Using the Air Canada example, why should taxpayers of Canada be forking up some billions of dollars to safeguard the investment of an Air Canada share holder ? Our government has already fired up the printing press to print money for the employees. If the company needs more money to stay afloat, let them fire up their own press, print up share certificates and sell them to investors on the open market. That's what the markets are for, sell the risk to folks who take risks. If the company cant survive, that shouldn't be a problem of the taxpayer, not unless it's a crown corporation where taxpayer is the shareholder.

Me thinks all you airline folks want your cake and eat it too. Listen to yourselves, you want to keep the money and funnel it to shareholders when times are good, but stick the bill on the taxpayer when times are bad.. That's just WRONG.
Sorry - but that's pretty narrowminded.

Everybody needs a bailout. Your assuming everybody is a publicly traded company - which they are not. Maybe those with shares need extra strings or regulations - but they need help none the less. There are hundred's of companies big and small what about them? The government locked down everything - forcing the airlines to sit idle. This was not some random downturn or something of the airlines doing, in which case they should have money to weather the storm, and I would argue most do.

You keep harping that if no-one has money to sit this out for a year - then it's their own fault and they should die....really - give your head a shake. A business in which it's only business is to fly airplanes - they build a plan for that. They don't build a plan for not flying airplanes. Come on..... :roll:

While the argument for having enough cash to get you through a few months is a valid one - no-body could plan for being out of business for 6 - 12 months. That is unthinkable - at least before now. During 9/11 the unthinkable happened - but at least it was short term. Even as they started grounding everyone - they knew it would only be a week at most. To be forced into a shutdown for an undetermined amount of time (months or years) with no end in site and be told your on your own. That's just WRONG.
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flying4dollars
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by flying4dollars »

goldeneagle wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:47 pm
rudder wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:25 am In the US, the big 3 are looking at eligibility for US$10B each in government assistance (that is C$14B).
The US also puts strings on the money, nobody laid off till October, and all destinations continue to get service. It's neatly set up so that no town loses service entirely, and no airline employee goes without a paycheque before they go into the voting booth in November. But after the election, it'll be a no holds barred list of layoffs and reality starts to sink in.

Using the Air Canada example, why should taxpayers of Canada be forking up some billions of dollars to safeguard the investment of an Air Canada share holder ? Our government has already fired up the printing press to print money for the employees. If the company needs more money to stay afloat, let them fire up their own press, print up share certificates and sell them to investors on the open market. That's what the markets are for, sell the risk to folks who take risks. If the company cant survive, that shouldn't be a problem of the taxpayer, not unless it's a crown corporation where taxpayer is the shareholder.

Me thinks all you airline folks want your cake and eat it too. Listen to yourselves, you want to keep the money and funnel it to shareholders when times are good, but stick the bill on the taxpayer when times are bad.. That's just WRONG.
That's a pretty arrogant thing to say. You are aware there are airlines in Canada without shareholders, aren't you? Why wouldn't anyone in the industry want the help? Be it a bailout or loan? Nobody asked for this. The need for help is not due to poor management or financial irresponsibility. It was a result of a government sanctioned lockdown stemmed from allegedly poor viral containment protocols and other factors which you can speculate on.

No, airline folk don't want cake. They just want to continue to put food on their tables and KEEP the roof over their heads. It's just WRONG, to think that's wrong.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by goldeneagle »

flying4dollars wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:57 pm That's a pretty arrogant thing to say. You are aware there are airlines in Canada without shareholders, aren't you?
Actually, there are no airlines without shareholders. All corporations have shareholders. You are aware of that aren't you ? The thing is, the vast majority of corporations are not publicly traded, so you dont know anything about the share structure behind the company. But that doesn't mean those corporations cannot access capital markets by selling shares, I've done it myself in the past when we wanted to do a significant round of growth that needed a few million in capital.

Capital markets are available to any company that requires liquidity to stay afloat today. If the capital markets will not provide a company with liquidity, it's likely because the business is not viable going forward. It may or may not be a fault of the company, but that is the reality today. Huge government handouts to prop up companies who produce a product the markets no longer want is just flushing huge amounts of taxpayer money down the drain. Today, and for the forseeable future, airline seats from point A to point B are a product the market doesn't want or need. Airlines need to rapidly shrink to a size the market will support, or go broke. That's the reality today. Flushing a billion dollars of taxpayer money down the airline black hole will not change that, it will just postpone the inevitable.
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'97 Tercel
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by '97 Tercel »

Airlines need to rapidly shrink to a size the market will support
and that's not happening right now?

:roll:
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flying4dollars
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by flying4dollars »

goldeneagle wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 9:19 pm
flying4dollars wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:57 pm That's a pretty arrogant thing to say. You are aware there are airlines in Canada without shareholders, aren't you?
Actually, there are no airlines without shareholders. All corporations have shareholders. You are aware of that aren't you ? The thing is, the vast majority of corporations are not publicly traded, so you dont know anything about the share structure behind the company. But that doesn't mean those corporations cannot access capital markets by selling shares, I've done it myself in the past when we wanted to do a significant round of growth that needed a few million in capital.
Yes, I am aware of that. But your statement of "all you airline folk want to have your cake and eat it too" and how we want to keep our money to funnel it to shareholders, implies that we want to keep our shareholders pockets fat. At some airlines, the employees are also shareholders, so you can see how I made that connection. Perhaps your delivery should not have been so generalized. I am not a shareholder at my airline. Right now, my priority is keeping a job, getting paid for it, and ensuring that continuity. I don't care if we make profit. I just care that we are keeping the bills paid and able to stay afloat until such a time where profits can once again be realized. There are many others out there sharing that very sentiment.

So no, not all of us airline folk are out to have our cake, eat it too and keep money funneling to our, or the company's shareholders.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by Eric Janson »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:02 pm Delta Mainline 885 aircraft
United mainline: 806 aircraft
American Mainlinte : 1026 aircraft
Even Southwest : 740 aircraft

These numbers, I think, illustrate the reason Air Canada calls for "proportionate support".

Air Canada mainline and Rouge 255 aircraft including the recently parked Aircraft and the 737 Max

We should look at the kind of aid a similar size airline received like KLM who with 122 aircraft is to receive a 2 to 4 Billion Euros in State aid or Air France with 224 aircraft which is getting 7 billion Euros.

https://news.klm.com/klm-grateful-for-2 ... overnment/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22G0I3
If I read your linked articles correctly.

- Details are still being worked out. This may not happen depending on conditions attached.

- In the KLM case it is clearly a loan that will need to be paid back. Less clear for Air France.

Still too early to judge how this will play out imho. Wage subsidies at both companies end later this year.
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by ayseven »

Also, we are far more dependent upon our air carriers than they r in Europe, since we r so spread out.
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by BigQ »

We are all fracked.

One study released this week expects 42% of job losses are permanent and will not return. Bad for pilots.

The auto industry being decimated means less cars on the road, more telecommuting. Bad for pilots.

Boomers are the most affected and at risk, young families the most scared. Both Bad for pilots.

We cannot afford to go on government pogey for years until our jobs come back. Crying for funding for the prospect of having a job back is unrealistic, as this Canadian economy is unable to take the hit. The BoC knows it cannot afford to inflate our money supply too much, even if the stimulus would "chase bad money".

Pain. Pain for years to come, across the board. Regroup, Retrain, Resilience.
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indieadventurer
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by indieadventurer »

It's 2020, everything we thought we knew is out the window, including our predictions for the future. I'm not as pessimistic as you and think we'll be surprised at how quickly things return to a sense of normality within the next year. Not based on anything other than my gut feeling and I could be 100% wrong.
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Inverted2
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by Inverted2 »

I don’t know, right now you can’t even go eat in a restaurant in Ontario. You’ll get fined for sitting on a park bench. You can’t even get a haircut but you can take your dog to get one. :lol: It’s all about how much muh government will allow. People aren’t going to travel much till we get most of our freedoms back. I don’t think wearing a stinky mask on a 4 hour flight is going to be very popular for long.
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CPT.HarshColdReality
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

Inverted2 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm I don’t know, right now you can’t even go eat in a restaurant in Ontario. You’ll get fined for sitting on a park bench. You can’t even get a haircut but you can take your dog to get one. :lol: It’s all about how much muh government will allow. People aren’t going to travel much till we get most of our freedoms back. I don’t think wearing a stinky mask on a 4 hour flight is going to be very popular for long.
you would be surprised on how many scared ppl their are. Mind numbing...
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garfield
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by garfield »

CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:35 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm I don’t know, right now you can’t even go eat in a restaurant in Ontario. You’ll get fined for sitting on a park bench. You can’t even get a haircut but you can take your dog to get one. :lol: It’s all about how much muh government will allow. People aren’t going to travel much till we get most of our freedoms back. I don’t think wearing a stinky mask on a 4 hour flight is going to be very popular for long.
you would be surprised on how many scared ppl their are. Mind numbing...
Exactly, what's the point of travelling if there's nothing to do once you're at destination? And going to a restaurant where waitresses wear masks and gloves?!

Could be interesting if you travel with your family, rent a house with a nice view/pool and just stay there.
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by mbav8r »

Add ExpressJet to the list
Houston, Texas—First Officer Joe Mauro, chairman of the ExpressJet Airlines Master Executive Council (XJT MEC) of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), issued the following statement in response to United Airlines’ awarding all 50-seat Embraer 145 flying moving forward to CommutAir:

“I am very disappointed that United Airlines announced today that ExpressJet Airlines was not chosen as the sole E145 operator in the United Express system. United Airlines purchased 49 percent of ExpressJet Airlines when Mana Air LLC bought the airline from SkyWest Airlines in early 2019. Just a few short months ago, ExpressJet was positioned to be the foundation for United’s regional consolidation, so today’s decision is extremely disappointing.

“The ExpressJet MEC conducted an arduous, intense, and unprecedented process of crafting an economic proposal during a short, demanding timeline to provide the necessary measures to reduce ExpressJet Airline’s block hour costs.

“The ExpressJet pilots have shown time and time again that we can adapt to changing circumstances, and this pandemic tested our resolve to take drastic steps to ensure our future. Regrettably, our efforts were not enough. Unfortunately, when cost is the only focus, the years of dedication by this pilot group for our mainline partner are overlooked and discredited, and the human element is ignored.

“The XJT MEC and ALPA stand ready to provide support to ExpressJet pilots as they process this devastating news and make decisions about the next chapter of their careers—either in or out of aviation.
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Re: Layoff Numbers

Post by mixturerich »

CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:35 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm I don’t know, right now you can’t even go eat in a restaurant in Ontario. You’ll get fined for sitting on a park bench. You can’t even get a haircut but you can take your dog to get one. :lol: It’s all about how much muh government will allow. People aren’t going to travel much till we get most of our freedoms back. I don’t think wearing a stinky mask on a 4 hour flight is going to be very popular for long.
you would be surprised on how many scared ppl their are. Mind numbing...
It’s only natural human reaction to widespread sickness, I don’t hold it against them. Personally I’d like to try and avoid getting covid because I don’t want to roll the dice with my health. There’s a chance, albeit very small, to suffer some permanent health effects from covid. Also if I’m asymptomatic I wouldn’t want to pass it on to my parents or grandparents. Call me whatever you want but covid is a bit spooky at the very least. It’s not the flu!

People can keep touting “we all need to toughen up and accept it and stop hiding from it” all they want but you can’t stop human nature, as flawed as it may be.
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