Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

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wordstwice
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by wordstwice »

The vast majority of us appreciate and respect the work of ATC everywhere. Most of us realize we don’t have a clue about airspace optimization or ATFM and therefore leave it to the experts.

I’ve been based in YYZ and never had an issue coming or going. I definitely scratch my head at a few things but, again, I’m not an ATS expert so I just shrug my shoulders and worry about my own job. I’ve also flown into all the airports mentioned and, again, no issues. Every place has its quirks for various reasons and that’s just the way it is.


This thread was a positive discussion until a few made It personal by comparing US controllers to Canadians and demeaning their skill level. All that did was show their ignorance so don’t give it anymore attention than it deserves.
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altiplano
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by altiplano »

thenoflyzone wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 am
altiplano wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:13 am So defensive!

This isn't a shot at you, but you're going to take a shot at me for something that I had nothing to do with?

This was a comment about moving traffic on close parallels, it's not a shot at you. The Canadian setup is goofy, maybe you don't see it that way but from the STARs to the excessive vectoring to the noise restrictions it's not as efficient.

Yeah I said 98% of the time. Maybe it's 95%, Either way that's how it usually runs. I acknowledged when weather is down it doesn't go like that.

And yeah it's 1 tower controller. No dreaming. And SFO will only be arriving on 2 runways and departing on the intersecting except the occasional heavy.

What's the YYZ arrival rate when they don't open both 6's/24's? How many tower & ground controllers for 66 arrivals/hour?
Hang on a second. YYZ can handle more movements/hour, and needs 1 less runway to do it, and yet it's the one with a goofy setup? Ok boss.

As for the AAR's in YYZ without the 24's, it's still higher than SFO's without the visuals on the 28s.

it doesn't matter if they only have 1 air controller. if anything, the fact they only have 1 should scare you. it's not something other airports should emulate. It's safe, orderly and then expeditious. Not the other way around. I can tell you from personal experience that a single controller working 3 runways (with 1 being a crossing runway), is dangerous when movements are as high as 54 arrivals/hour. Let's not even begin to talk about 4 runways with 1 controller. It all comes back to my original point. Don't use SFO as an example. It's a dangerous place.

And btw, it is a shot a me - and all Nav Canadians in fact- even though I dont work at YYZ. You are under the impression that Canadian controllers can't move as much metal as American ones. I find that offensive, especially when it's false, and that you base it off your anecdotal experience at SFO of all places. I gave your hard numbers and facts that prove YYZ can move more metal. So what if they use 2 air/ground controllers to do it. Who knows, if SFO had that second air and ground controllers, maybe they could to, in a much safer manner.
You're missing the point, I was responding to a comment about close parallel ops, not bashing you.

If you can't see how there are some positives in other systems without taking it personally that's your problem. Have a good one.
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thenoflyzone
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by thenoflyzone »

altiplano wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 1:24 pm

If you can't see how there are some positives in other systems without taking it personally that's your problem. Have a good one.
You weren't illustrating the positives in other systems. You illustrated SFO, another airport with no taxiway between its parallels, and you basically said to YYZ "Here you go, why don't you run it like they do !".

Fully aware of the dangers of closely spaced parallel runways with no taxiway in between, particularly the south complex at YYZ. The Canadian TSB has had it's eye on the south complex for 10 years now. Way too many incidents. They have even conducted a safety issue investigation specifically for that complex. The report came out a year ago.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... O0038.html

As far as busy commercial airports go, the crappiest airport layout in Canada is probably that south complex at YYZ. Just like the crappiest layout in the States is most likely SFO.
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Last edited by thenoflyzone on Sun May 31, 2020 6:43 am, edited 5 times in total.
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FenderManDan
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by FenderManDan »

I have an idea! Start the Av Canada ATC services company. Now there is competition for you
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altiplano
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by altiplano »

thenoflyzone wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:32 am
altiplano wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 1:24 pm

If you can't see how there are some positives in other systems without taking it personally that's your problem. Have a good one.
You weren't illustrating the positives in other systems. You illustrated SFO, another airport with no taxiway between its parallels, and you basically said to YYZ "Here you go, why don't you run it like they do !".

Fully aware of the dangers of closely spaced parallel runways with no taxiway in between, particularly the south complex at YYZ. The Canadian TSB has had it's eye on the south complex for 10 years now. Way too many incidents. They have even conducted a safety issue investigation specifically for that complex. The report came out a year ago.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inve ... O0038.html

As far as busy commercial airports go, the crappiest airport layout in Canada is probably that south complex at YYZ. Just like the crappiest layout in the States is most likely SFO.
The other commenter brought up YYZ and said US airports have a taxiway in the middle, I pointed out that SFO did not have that middle taxiway and still moves a reasonable amount of traffic when possible.

I pointed out other likely issues like our star designs, restrictive noise abatement, and other reasons.

I never pointed out any controller issues, rather I stated a that controller will surely point out why we can't move traffic like that on the south complex and "that's fine."..

That's it... you inferred whatever you wanted. They was no slight at you or your colleagues. Over sensitive.

Have a good one.
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fishface
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by fishface »

YYZ does not - I repeat - does NOT run 66 arrivals per hour. Even if they have the staffing, runway config and the right weather conditions.
That might be their theoretical max arrival rate, but they add a 10 aircraft per hour buffer - 56 AAR - and that is the actual best they can do... and even then they still impose APREQs and delay people.
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thenoflyzone
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by thenoflyzone »

fishface wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:52 am YYZ does not - I repeat - does NOT run 66 arrivals per hour. Even if they have the staffing, runway config and the right weather conditions.
That might be their theoretical max arrival rate, but they add a 10 aircraft per hour buffer - 56 AAR - and that is the actual best they can do... and even then they still impose APREQs and delay people.
I guess you didn't notice the + sign next to 56-66 when tripling on 05/06s and 23/24s. Or the note that says "higher rate possible depending on aircraft mix, winds and weather".

https://extranetapps.navcanada.ca/ois/A ... ?icao=CYYZ

YYZ can go to 70 arrivals an hour if all conditions are right. Don't need to take my word for it. The document linked above proves it, and at least 1 YYZ TCU controller that lurks on this website has said so himself on the ATS question forum of this very website. So I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you are wrong - I repeat - you are wrong.
florch wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 6:43 am
How is ATC an essential service if airlines are not?
That's not what I said. I named one particular destination (Cayo Coco) to illustrate that not all routes at an airline are essential. Not even close, actually.

Is Rouge flying non stop YUL-Bucharest or YYZ-Budapest essential service? Are all those non stop flights by AC and WS to Vegas essential? Is Sunwing flying Thunder Bay to Varadero essential service? I don't think so. It's in that context that I said what I said.

Yes, airlines are essential service, but not all routes they operate are, and the parked planes and layoffs prove it. Or else the government would have stepped in to intervene, to keep all these so called essential routes open.

ATC, on the other hand, is entirely essential service, in good times, and in bad. Whether I see 1000 movements a day across my airspace, or half that. Yes, staffing levels being as short as they are play in our favor, but just because a certain amount of pilots got laid off doesn't automatically mean the same proportion of ATC should get laid off. That's not the way it works, and the current context at AC/WS/TS/WG vs NavCan proves it.

Now I'm not saying there wont be any layoffs if traffic numbers stay as low as they are, but if it happens, it won't be nearly as many as you think. A decent amount of controllers retired in the last month, at least in my FIR. Like I said, we number only ~2,100 from coast to coast (probably less than 2,000 now, with all the retirements). That is not a lot compared to the ten thousand+ pilots across our country.
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Last edited by thenoflyzone on Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by fishface »

I am already very aware of the document you provided. Just because the document says it, doesn’t “prove” anything - and that was exactly my point: They NEVER go above 56, no matter how good the conditions are. Even on those good 56 rate days, they still implement delays.
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thenoflyzone
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by thenoflyzone »

fishface wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:39 am I am already very aware of the document you provided. Just because the document says it, doesn’t “prove” anything - and that was exactly my point: They NEVER go above 56, no matter how good the conditions are. Even on those good 56 rate days, they still implement delays.
Just because the posted rate on the OIS page is often limited at 56 for YYZ doesn't mean they can't handle more. THAT's my point. If the rate is 56 and 64 show up for that particular hour, if the conditions are right, they can land all 64.

The posted rate on the OIS page for YUL rarely goes up above 36. And yet, it's not uncommon to see 40+ show up between 5 or 6 pm during the busy summer season. If the right conditions are there, all 40+ will land in that hour.

That's the "buffer" you're talking about. Set the rate slightly low, so that if more show up (which happens often, as flow control isn't an exact science), they can still land. Not the other way around.
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fishface
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by fishface »

That Mickey Mouse stuff is not how it’s supposed to be done though. I suggest NavCan go on a field trip to Virginia for a traffic management refresher course.
TMU East houses some of the most unprofessional and incompetent people as far as day-to-day operations go and I’d wager that I’m not the only one with that opinion.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Many airports in Canada are having financial diffculties. Are they going to increase airport fees by 30% ?

https://globalnews.ca/news/6965588/edmo ... ronavirus/

This may be what is in store for aviation: all stakeholders will raise fees to survive ( ie passed on the the airlines), and the airlines will hike ticket prices to cover the extra expense.

Maybe the days of cheap flying are over.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

swoop
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

ADM, which runs YUL and YMX Airports, is burning through $15 million dollars a month, They say its a disaster.

https://westernaviationnews.com/2020/06 ... ecast/amp/

How does that compare to Air Canada which was burning through 22 million dollars a DAY ?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... rings-air/
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rigpiggy
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by rigpiggy »

Braun wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:19 am Having worked a couple years with Rog his reputation was a lot bigger than what he actually could do as a controller. I’m glad you enjoyed the services he offered but there are a ton of just as efficient approach controllers. I won’t get into it more than that but the perception of efficiency from a flight crew isn’t always the correct way to measure efficiency.
Do you mean the twit in YYZ that would give you 6 turns to final so he could have a nice semi-circle on his radar trace. The guy that slowed you to 170 by syracuse, until you turned a corner when "speed your discretion" was the rule of the day. Or a 30 degree turn off course for separation vs slow by 20 kts. Yes, some are very good, others not so much. JMHO
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dhc#
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by dhc# »

Peter Shawn Taylor: Why airport bankruptcies could be a good thing.
Looming financial catastrophe could be the impetus necessary to force Canada’s airports into the 21st century.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/peter ... beb9faba1/
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dhc#
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by dhc# »

WestJet concerned third-party charges undermining Canada's economic recovery

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... 70156.html
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McKinley
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by McKinley »

I want to start off by saying that controllers are important ..And I appreciate the job they do.

However, when the airlines are hemorrhaging money and employees... a 30% increase in fees is utterly tone deaf, irresponsible and feels devoid of any sort of intelligence or connection to the “pulse” of the industry in which this monopolistic corporation allegedly “ serves.”

I cannot fathom how layoffs haven’t occurred in that already bloated salary environment...

I can already hear the cries for “ contract negotiations” and our pay and benefits being denuded further.

I’d hate to see airlines ground ... but to call airlines an essential service and expect them to shoulder increases in cost while government imposed travel restrictions increase and directly impact revenue feels like a no-win situation for Canadian Aviation.

I’d like to see the airlines shut down for a few weeks. Mind you, that’s probably the point.. maybe Turdman wants Chinese carriers to replace Canadian carriers... Maybe turdman will contact out the vaccine production to China... oh wait..
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alkaseltzer
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by alkaseltzer »

Where's that loud mouth, Gabor Lukacs now?
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McKinley
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by McKinley »

He’s a passenger rights activist...(And loud mouth)


I wouldn’t look to him to understand systemic issues in our industry ..

For example, I’m interested in what I eat, where it comes from and how it’s produced. This requires me to understand the system as a whole..and how I play into the system and contribute to the problem as a consumer.

Mr. L is doing no such self inventory... he’d be more than happy to see employees take the pay cut so joe six pack can go to Vegas that much cheaper.

He, unfortunately, is another pseudo regulatory body who is going to drive down WAWCON for employees. Which, will in turn, only deepen the issues for the consumer by fueling the dichotomy between service provider and consumer mer.

I had an interesting conversation with my neighbor the other day regarding cost of tickets. She was perplexed at how ticket prices have gone down despite inflation... and how “cheap” air travel is.
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thenoflyzone
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Re: Nav Canada to Hike Service Fees by 30%

Post by thenoflyzone »

dhc# wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:47 am WestJet concerned third-party charges undermining Canada's economic recovery

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... 70156.html
I find it funny that WS is concerned that a 3 to 7$ hike in NavCan fees will keep passengers away. I'm more of the opinion that travel restrictions, the virus, and the fact that if I book a flight, I might not get my money back if it gets canceled, is keeping passengers away. I could be wrong though...... :roll:

alkaseltzer wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:01 pm Where's that loud mouth, Gabor Lukacs now?
Why bring him into this? He's a passenger rights activist. Not a passenger price activist.

Lost luggage, flight delays, flight cancellations, denied boarding, etc. These are the issues he cares about, not a 3$ hike in NavCan fees.
McKinley wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:51 am
I wouldn’t look to him to understand systemic issues in our industry ..

For example, I’m interested in what I eat, where it comes from and how it’s produced. This requires me to understand the system as a whole..and how I play into the system and contribute to the problem as a consumer.

Mr. L is doing no such self inventory... he’d be more than happy to see employees take the pay cut so joe six pack can go to Vegas that much cheaper.
No need to go all philosophical.

Mr. L doesn't give two hoots about how much a passenger pays. He simply helps the travelling public to be aware of their rights and be capable of enforcing them against airlines. There is nothing wrong with that. He doesn't care if your ticket to Vegas is 300$ or 3000$.
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