AC pilot salaries now?

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digits_
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by digits_ »

tbaylx wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Top 10% of the income earners in Canada pay 54% of the income tax collected. The bottom 40% of income earners pay no tax after government benefits. It's darn close to universal basic income at the expense of the top earners and the CERB isn't going to be easy to turn off now.
The whole point of a universal basic income is that *everyone* gets it, without conditions. That is not the case at all here.
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by tbaylx »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 pm
tbaylx wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Top 10% of the income earners in Canada pay 54% of the income tax collected. The bottom 40% of income earners pay no tax after government benefits. It's darn close to universal basic income at the expense of the top earners and the CERB isn't going to be easy to turn off now.
The whole point of a universal basic income is that *everyone* gets it, without conditions. That is not the case at all here.
That's not how it works. The proposed UBI in Canada and the test pilot project in Ontario was based on a tax credit system that guaranteed a minimum income. Those making over about 48K a year were not eligible. It was to be paid for by increased taxes of which the top 10% earners (over $97K/year) would pay for over half.

Following a tax credit model, the Ontario Basic Income Pilot will ensure that participants receive up to:

Must be living on a low income (under $34,000 per year if you're single or under $48,000 per year if a couple)

$16,989 per year for a single person, less 50% of any earned income
$24,027 per year for a couple, less 50% of any earned income
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florch
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by florch »

tbaylx wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Top 10% of the income earners in Canada pay 54% of the income tax collected. The bottom 40% of income earners pay no tax after government benefits. It's darn close to universal basic income at the expense of the top earners and the CERB isn't going to be easy to turn off now.
Workers make at least 2 contributions to society, the service they provide and the tax they pay. So the lower 40% may be a tax drag on the budget but we still benefit from their services. IF a UBI replaced the myriad of other social programs that would be a benefit on its own, although governments don't tend towards less bureaucracy over time.
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ayseven
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by ayseven »

Not only that, the bottom earners put absolutely everything back into the economy and not in a bank or "investment in property" or whatever. The universal income would be a net benefit to us all, if it can do anything at all to stop the social problems (and COSTS associated) we have these days. There is too much poverty and hopelessness.I think it takes a bit of open-mindedness to accept this concept though, and that might be a hard sell. I know it is hard to get an underpaid, underemployed pilot to really think about this much; I do understand that, because I have been there too.
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tbaylx
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by tbaylx »

ayseven wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:43 am Not only that, the bottom earners put absolutely everything back into the economy and not in a bank or "investment in property" or whatever. The universal income would be a net benefit to us all, if it can do anything at all to stop the social problems (and COSTS associated) we have these days. There is too much poverty and hopelessness.I think it takes a bit of open-mindedness to accept this concept though, and that might be a hard sell. I know it is hard to get an underpaid, underemployed pilot to really think about this much; I do understand that, because I have been there too.
It's even harder to get someone who is already paying 54% marginal tax rate to "give just a little more" and "pay their fair share". UBI is great in theory but unless you cancel all the other social programs and find existing money to fund it it's not going to work.
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ayseven
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by ayseven »

I think that is the biggest problem with it. There isn't much incentive for a middle earner. It is always take take take by the government. Rich is a lot more than some people think.
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montado
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by montado »

florch wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 am
montado wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:52 am 60k income takes home 46k in Ontario
300k income takes home 174265 or about 4x as much take home. When gross was 5x.
I wouldn't take silence for agreement on this one. 53.5% income tax is high on your top dollars in Ontario. in 2015 it was 46.5% when Wynne and Trudeau each raised income taxes to our current level. What is a reasonable upper limit to you? Another way to look at it is the guy making $300k makes 9x the contribution to society of the guy at $60k. (126k/14k by your numbers)

The guy making 300k hasn't been making 300k his whole career. Their was a time that that 300k wage earner was a 30 year old leach to society making peanuts and taking advantage of every social benefit for his young kids etc.

So no the 300k wage earner is not contributing more to society. They are no different than the guy making 50k today that works his way up to 300k

All these ways people try to spin an argument is ridiculous. No one really cares that a huge wage earner pays more tax. I'm happy to have my socialized health benefits when I'm jobless I'm also happy to pay more taxes when times are good and I can pull in above average.

All those seats filled by the highest earners are a seniority number and nothing to do with being most qualified for the job. Plenty of pilots just starting out at a place like air canada left a WB captain seat for their own personal reasons. So you think the low wage earners should bow down and be thankful for the high wage earners? Get you head out of the sand. If and WB captain at AC was laid off they would apply for CERB and be a leach to the tax system like anyone else.
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florch
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by florch »

montado wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:57 pm The guy making 300k hasn't been making 300k his whole career. Their was a time that that 300k wage earner was a 30 year old leach to society making peanuts and taking advantage of every social benefit for his young kids etc.

So no the 300k wage earner is not contributing more to society. They are no different than the guy making 50k today that works his way up to 300k

All these ways people try to spin an argument is ridiculous. No one really cares that a huge wage earner pays more tax. I'm happy to have my socialized health benefits when I'm jobless I'm also happy to pay more taxes when times are good and I can pull in above average.

All those seats filled by the highest earners are a seniority number and nothing to do with being most qualified for the job. Plenty of pilots just starting out at a place like air canada left a WB captain seat for their own personal reasons. So you think the low wage earners should bow down and be thankful for the high wage earners? Get you head out of the sand. If and WB captain at AC was laid off they would apply for CERB and be a leach to the tax system like anyone else.
Meow.

You're harshing my mellow. Why would you call people leeches? Why do you hate children? They'll contribute to society in time and we were all children at one point. How can you say the guy earning $300k is not contributing more? He is definitely contributing more tax revenue than average. If that's not a valuable contribution, can he keep it instead? When did I say anyone should bow down?

I'm not against a progressive tax system, but you don't seem to think I should be allowed to have an opinion on when enough is enough. My facts are correct and you didn't answer my original question: How much tax is enough? What should the highest tax bracket be, and on what income should it start?

How does that poll function work? 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%.......
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montado
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by montado »

This pandemic is evidence that the 300k captain is actually nothing to do with contributing to the economy. Without passengers the job is useless. It's the passengers buying the tickets that move the economy. As for progressive taxes, why would someone who makes 50k a year be empathetic about the taxes someone with higher income pays? They pay the same taxes on the first 50k of income. They pay the same taxes as everyone else. Why are the high income earners upset about taxes.
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Hangry
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by Hangry »

He obviously is a youngin who has never cleared north of 60K.

It would be interesting to see his honest opinion when he’s making 350k. Which he probably never will. And wouldn’t be honest anyways.

So why bother even engaging.
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by rudder »

A better measurement of compensation for a positive career as an airline pilot is ‘career earnings’. For most, they will make the same gross amount over the last 10-12 years that they made over the previous 25+ years. That is the nature of the business and seniority.

As for taxes, CRA’s favourite son/daughter is a sad sack salaried employee making $250-300k. From a tax perspective it is like taking candy from a baby (few if any available tax avoidance strategies) and makes up for the tens of thousands of lower income singles and families that pay zero income taxes (but many consumption taxes).
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montado
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by montado »

Hangry wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:25 pm He obviously is a youngin who has never cleared north of 60K.

It would be interesting to see his honest opinion when he’s making 350k. Which he probably never will. And wouldn’t be honest anyways.

So why bother even engaging.
It would be interesting to see what your honest opinion was of people making 5 times your income and bitching about taxes when you just started out... You know, when you were renting a place, trying to start a family etc. I'm sure you stood up and said "heck that captain sure pays to much taxes! Maybe I should be paying my share, because at my income I don't even contribute to society!"
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by florch »

montado wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:32 pm

It would be interesting to see what your honest opinion was of people making 5 times your income and bitching about taxes when you just started out... You know, when you were renting a place, trying to start a family etc. I'm sure you stood up and said "heck that captain sure pays to much taxes! Maybe I should be paying my share, because at my income I don't even contribute to society!"


I think I tried to be respectful and learn from those guys. They were almost always willing to teach.

Jealousy isn't a good reason for disrespecting someone's contribution. Gross. I'm positive that most guys making north of $200k really do feel for the guys starting out because they've been there. I never see anyone rubbing their hands together gleefully and laughing at the poor dumb newbie. We see those guys as where we were. I hope they enjoy the path as much as I did, layoffs and all.
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alkaseltzer
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by alkaseltzer »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:04 am
alkaseltzer wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:47 pm All valid and good points.

Jazz came out today stating that medical benefits only will get partially covered (30%) for their furloughed pilots + getting CEWS. (for the entire duration of the CEWS program)

Jazz is a subcontractor to AC, yet an independent company. Good on them for not following the current narrative at AC to look after their guys.

Are you telling me that all Air Canada Pilots and Flight Attendants taking a paycut are (partially) in effect, subsidizing Jazz benefits? How does Mike Rousseau justify this course of action? And after Trudeau states that all employers should be using it. Where's the integrity? What am I not understanding here? Heartless or mild pericarditis?

Rowdy -> which ship is the priority? Not enough life jackets on the Titanic? The senior pilots and senior members of the union seem to be the ones in the lifeboats just watching everyone else struggle. Some are sending up flares...some are trying to grab onto floating furniture in the icy Atlantic.

That's exactly how the 242 furloughed pilots feel right now.
Slight correction, the inactive pilots benefits have been reduced to extended health care only, no dental, life, STD, LTD, AD&D.
They(the pilots) will pay their portion of 30% from payroll deduction, in addition to this there is no pension contribution from the company or the pilot, essentially no cost to the company to keep them on CEWS, except I’m not sure if the company has to contribute to CPP and EI.
As for your analogy that the senior pilots are in the lifeboats and don’t care, I find that statement offensive, they are only receiving about 2/3 of their normal salary in order that many more pilots were not furloughed.
The remaining pilots took a 33% pay cut to save many jobs, what is it you want them to do? Use some common sense, they could go further and take a 50% block to save more jobs, what would your paycheque look like at 50% block. The pilots about to be furloughed are mostly, if not all, on the first four years, 50% of that is less than EI for most of you given that EI is 55% of your salary up to the max.
Bottom line, I find your attitude towards the senior pilots to be selfish, you don’t even recognize they’re already making a sacrifice for many to remain employed, in all likelihood there will be more cuts coming in the fall, so as I said before, time to work on plan b.
Good luck, sincerely
You know what is OFFENSIVE, you being to able to vote on MY FUTURE while I CAN'T on FURLOUGH STATUS.

Since you replied in length, I will respond in kind. I was being patient to wait to see if ACPA would have achieved anything for the juniors, only to fail in this regard. So here goes:

On the slight correction. That's right. I wanted to save the mumbo-jumbo for "non-team Red" pilots reading these posts. It's embarrassing that those pilots are able to stay on at essentially no cost to their companies on CEWS, yet the same is not being negotiated for us. Or is it? Would make many of us sleep better to know that the union is actually going that extra step -> but if we have concerns, "to contact our MLO"? Bottom 100 never made it to the flight line, some made it through sim; they only saw the MLO office door on the last day of the PIT course, during the Flight Ops tour. It's an out of touch response. Geez, they could use some empathy.

I'm sorry you find it my analogy offensive. The union is non-representative of the collective seniority. It's run like a business, catered to the highest paying clients - and it should. The bottom 262+ (and now 360+) realize that our measly union dues while on CEWS may cover the coffee budget at union headquarters; did it really need to take two weeks for the union to acknowledge to the membership that 100 more pilots got their notice? Emails are not even being answered by junior members, other than the one off. Or was RG trying to plan the finances of such a *drastic* drop in union dues? Does he know how to plan the finances at Ornge, where there will essentially never face that scenario? Or would using a Ouija board and getting Jimmy Hoffa to negotiate for us be a better idea?

Let’s put it into context: “Jimmy Hoffa once said to Frank Sheeran enthusiastically, “If you got it, Irish, a truck driver brought it to you. Don't ever forget that. That's the whole secret to what we do.” That “you got it” part covered food, clothing, medicine, building materials, fuel for home and industry, just about everything. Because a nationwide trucking strike could literally starve and shut down the nation, Bobby Kennedy called Jimmy Hoffa's Teamsters “the most powerful institution in the country aside from the United States government.…”
― Charles Brandt, "I Heard You Paint Houses" (Netflix's The Irishman)


In contrast, on June 30th and July 7th, and now the end of July, the country's largest airline pilot union by membership (correct me if ALPA is bigger), will watch from the glass windows on the 6th floor at 5935 Airport Road, the guys that go out on the street for a benefit that could have been negotiated at zero cost to the company. Maybe they’ll enjoy a nice summer sunset as they watch on. As I said before, Westjet/Sunwing/Transat/Jazz are all taking advantage to extend it. Are we not an essential service? Or was? Maybe? Perhaps? Bueller?

There are good members on the union; I do not want to downplay the good volunteer work they are doing. But it is the opinion of the bottom 25%, that the ones at the actual table do not want to rock the boat, and have their own goals of moving into management...at who's cost? If these folks do make the move over, without earning the respect of the junior pilots, there are very, very rocky times ahead. To those reading who haven't clued in, it's called conflict of interest and use of disclosure. There should be a 5 year ban.

Pause. Big breath.

Do you really think I would be writing this if this wasn't a major bone spur amongst the junior pilots? But I'm supposed to air out our dirty laundry to Morneau Shepell as if it was a crisis hot line. Which by the way gives a paper trail for the rest of my career. Right.

You asked, what can the senior guys do? Maybe.... take a stand! Set the parking brake, demand that the wage subsidy get extended for everyone with recall rights. Is the conviction there? The flight attendant union took it to the media. What has ACPA done? Side calls and letters to Garneau once in a blue moon doesn't seem to be working. The public is unaware and Garneau’s cerebellum is in low earth orbit. Would a cardboard cutout of "AC refuses to extend my wage subsidy" gain some likes/retweets on social media? Would that be a more effective approach? Dressing up in uniform to picket outside Parliament Hill? Doesn’t this disgust you?

You said the remaining pilots took a 33% payout; news flash -> almost everyone in the Canadian airline industry is taking a pay cut! Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not easy for anyone to take a paycut, but to be denied a public service...it's below the belt. Senior pilots at most Canadian airlines are making some sort of sacrifice to help save employment -> but their junior inactive guys are on CEWS. Combined with the strongest balance sheet of any airline in Canada, and in CR’s words, the world. Furloughed pilots, not just AC, aren’t reasonably asking for benefits/pension etc. Where’s the disconnect?

Here’s something that will blow your mind…has CEWS (which can be at zero cost to the company) saved any jobs? The answer on June 30 and July 7th is NO. On August 1st, the answer is another 100 NO’S. So I don’t need you to take a dime more of a paycut for us when there’s CEWS available. It hasn’t helped either of us so far.

Note, one or more of our subcontractors (Jazz) is continuing on the CEWS + partial benefits =>> AC's CFO sits on the board of directors when they purchased a 9.99% stake in Chorus. What is the thought process? Why is ACPA SILENT on this issue? Am I missing something? Did I miss an email communique of their growing anger towards the mismanagement of this issue? Nope.

The most recent video from CR - he looks like he threw in the towel on hopes of any sort of government aid. Yes, Trudeau needs to go. But we are not the only ones in the industry NOT getting no-strings-attached-government aid, other than CEWS. Is that any reason to deny your own employees a program which can help out families? Not all of the junior pilots are young; we don't live in our parent's basement. Majority of us left good positions at other airlines/military to come here. We have mortgages to pay, children to feed. The job market is quite dried up for us to return to those companies and for decent paying jobs out there.

Did it ever bother ACPA or the management that having a professional Air Canada pilot resort to $2k on CERB is utterly atrocious while CEWS is readily available? How are we supposed to be okay with that with all the sacrifices that we’ve made to get here?

I’m quite surprised the ACPA head office hasn’t been torched and on fire as some of the riots down in the USA - > that’s how pissed off the junior pilots are at this organization.

The country, other airline pilots need to know about this game of abuse. I know you read the memo that a company should be measured by how it treats people during tough times - why bother writing it at all, if no one can stand by it? Yes it was written by a company personnel and not an ACPA member. Not sure which paternalistic narrative by the union or the company, is supposed to make us feel better.

It’s not the junior pilots downgrading the profession, it’s the seniors + senior pilots on the union refusing to stand up for the juniors. There’s a couple junior pilots to be furloughed whereby their father’s retired early to help mitigate the future of their sons. It’s a one off. We were told initially that they had hoped more pilots would have gone for the retirement package, but hey, 10-15k+/month is coming in for no work - life is good right? Why retire? Or rather, why keep silent on the future of AC? The ones being put on the street? But we are not looking for YOUR dollars. We never have; one day we’ll be in YOUR shoes. We’re looking for a government benefit that we as taxpayers have paid into over the years.

ACPA has done more to degrade the profession than any other Canadian pilot union. *mic drop* We are the only airline in Canada with furloughed pilots not on CEWS.

But let's dish out union money to third party companies to conduct "surveys", "job fairs", "resume help"...give me a break.

We were told in our ground schools that we must do our part to protect the airline for future generations - something our children can look forward to.

FACTS: Other airlines extending the wage subsidy greatly helps pilots to actually take care of their children RIGHT NOW during this pandemic.


I’m offended by your comment of “good luck” as a simple dismissal of the burning issues at hand. To drive the point and add salt to the wound - If you had a close family member that was about to go through a tough medical surgery, full of fear, uncertainty - would you simply say, good luck? Or find out about every option that was open to them? What if it was at ZERO cost to you? Would that be asking much?

ACPA needs to dissolve, and adopt the constitutional elements of ALPA; is there a much needed evolution of this union model? YES. As of tomorrow, which ALPA/UNIFOR member airline has their guys on the street, off CEWS?

I’m demanding integrity by those who call us “sisters and brothers”, from management, and the DB'ers. Enough of the charade.

JetBlue - no layoffs until May 2021
Delta - no concessions
Air Canada -> played the union like taking candy from a toothless baby

You want to help out the junior pilots? Set the parking brake and speak up. But I already know you won't. There's no spine. You already sold us out.

Oh...were you one of the ones who voted for the juniors to be on DC vs DB?

The odds of Kanye West winning the presidency are much higher than ACPA doing the right thing.

ACPA trolls who want to defend this cheap Shakespearean tragedy, the stage is all yours!
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Last edited by alkaseltzer on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by fur1ough »

alkaseltzer wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:59 pm
mbav8r wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:04 am
alkaseltzer wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:47 pm All valid and good points.

Jazz came out today stating that medical benefits only will get partially covered (30%) for their furloughed pilots + getting CEWS. (for the entire duration of the CEWS program)

Jazz is a subcontractor to AC, yet an independent company. Good on them for not following the current narrative at AC to look after their guys.

Are you telling me that all Air Canada Pilots and Flight Attendants taking a paycut are (partially) in effect, subsidizing Jazz benefits? How does Mike Rousseau justify this course of action? And after Trudeau states that all employers should be using it. Where's the integrity? What am I not understanding here? Heartless or mild pericarditis?

Rowdy -> which ship is the priority? Not enough life jackets on the Titanic? The senior pilots and senior members of the union seem to be the ones in the lifeboats just watching everyone else struggle. Some are sending up flares...some are trying to grab onto floating furniture in the icy Atlantic.

That's exactly how the 242 furloughed pilots feel right now.
Slight correction, the inactive pilots benefits have been reduced to extended health care only, no dental, life, STD, LTD, AD&D.
They(the pilots) will pay their portion of 30% from payroll deduction, in addition to this there is no pension contribution from the company or the pilot, essentially no cost to the company to keep them on CEWS, except I’m not sure if the company has to contribute to CPP and EI.
As for your analogy that the senior pilots are in the lifeboats and don’t care, I find that statement offensive, they are only receiving about 2/3 of their normal salary in order that many more pilots were not furloughed.
The remaining pilots took a 33% pay cut to save many jobs, what is it you want them to do? Use some common sense, they could go further and take a 50% block to save more jobs, what would your paycheque look like at 50% block. The pilots about to be furloughed are mostly, if not all, on the first four years, 50% of that is less than EI for most of you given that EI is 55% of your salary up to the max.
Bottom line, I find your attitude towards the senior pilots to be selfish, you don’t even recognize they’re already making a sacrifice for many to remain employed, in all likelihood there will be more cuts coming in the fall, so as I said before, time to work on plan b.
Good luck, sincerely
You know what is OFFENSIVE, you being to able to vote on MY FUTURE while I CAN'T on FURLOUGH STATUS.

Since you replied in length, I will respond in kind. I was being patient to wait to see if ACPA would have achieved anything for the juniors, only to fail in this regard. So here goes:

On the slight correction. That's right. I wanted to save the mumbo-jumbo for "non-team Red" pilots reading these posts. It's embarrassing that those pilots are able to stay on at essentially no cost to their companies on CEWS, yet the same is not being negotiated for us. Or is it? Would make many of us sleep better to know that the union is actually going that extra step -> but if we have concerns, "to contact our MLO"? Bottom 100 never made it to the flight line, some made it through sim; they only saw the MLO office door on the last day of the PIT course, during the Flight Ops tour. It's an out of touch response. Geez, they could use some empathy.

I'm sorry you find it my analogy offensive. The union is non-representative of the collective seniority. It's run like a business, catered to the highest paying clients - and it should. The bottom 262+ (and now 360+) realize that our measly union dues while on CEWS may cover the coffee budget at union headquarters; did it really need to take two weeks for the union to acknowledge to the membership that 100 more pilots got their notice? Emails are not even being answered by junior members, other than the one off. Or was RG trying to plan the finances of such a *drastic* drop in union dues? Does he know how to plan the finances at Ornge, where there will essentially never face that scenario? Or would using a Ouija board and getting Jimmy Hoffa to negotiate for us be a better idea?

Let’s put it into context: “Jimmy Hoffa once said to Frank Sheeran enthusiastically, “If you got it, Irish, a truck driver brought it to you. Don't ever forget that. That's the whole secret to what we do.” That “you got it” part covered food, clothing, medicine, building materials, fuel for home and industry, just about everything. Because a nationwide trucking strike could literally starve and shut down the nation, Bobby Kennedy called Jimmy Hoffa's Teamsters “the most powerful institution in the country aside from the United States government.…”
― Charles Brandt, "I Heard You Paint Houses" (Netflix's The Irishman)


In contrast, on June 30th and July 7th, and now the end of July, the country's largest airline pilot union by membership (correct me if ALPA is bigger), will watch from the glass windows on the 6th floor at 5935 Airport Road, the guys that go out on the street for a benefit that could have been negotiated at zero cost to the company. Maybe they’ll enjoy a nice summer sunset as they watch on. As I said before, Westjet/Sunwing/Transat/Jazz are all taking advantage to extend it. Are we not an essential service? Or was? Maybe? Perhaps? Bueller?

There are good members on the union; I do not want to downplay the good volunteer work they are doing. But it is the opinion of the bottom 25%, that the ones at the actual table do not want to rock the boat, and have their own goals of moving into management...at who's cost? If these folks do make the move over, without earning the respect of the junior pilots, there are very, very rocky times ahead. To those reading who haven't clued in, it's called conflict of interest and use of disclosure. There should be a 5 year ban.

Pause. Big breath.

Do you really think I would be writing this if this wasn't a major bone spur amongst the junior pilots? But I'm supposed to air out our dirty laundry to Morneau Shepell as if it was a crisis hot line. Which by the way gives a paper trail for the rest of my career. Right.

You asked, what can the senior guys do? Maybe.... take a stand! Set the parking brake, demand that the wage subsidy get extended for everyone with recall rights. Is the conviction there? The flight attendant union took it to the media. What has ACPA done? Side calls and letters to Garneau once in a blue moon doesn't seem to be working. The public is unaware and Garneau’s cerebellum is in low earth orbit. Would a cardboard cutout of "AC refuses to extend my wage subsidy" gain some likes/retweets on social media? Would that be a more effective approach? Dressing up in uniform to picket outside Parliament Hill? Doesn’t this disgust you?

You said the remaining pilots took a 33% payout; news flash -> almost everyone in the Canadian airline industry is taking a pay cut! Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not easy for anyone to take a paycut, but to be denied a public service...it's below the belt. Senior pilots at most Canadian airlines are making some sort of sacrifice to help save employment -> but their junior inactive guys are on CEWS. Combined with the strongest balance sheet of any airline in Canada, and in CR’s words, the world. Furloughed pilots, not just AC, aren’t reasonably asking for benefits/pension etc. Where’s the disconnect?

Here’s something that will blow your mind…has CEWS (which can be at zero cost to the company) saved any jobs? The answer on June 30 and July 7th is NO. On August 1st, the answer is another 100 NO’S. So I don’t need you to take a dime more of a paycut for us when there’s CEWS available. It hasn’t helped either of us so far.

Note, one or more of our subcontractors (Jazz) is continuing on the CEWS + partial benefits =>> AC's CFO sits on the board of directors when they purchased a 9.99% stake in Chorus. What is the thought process? Why is ACPA SILENT on this issue? Am I missing something? Did I miss an email communique of their growing anger towards the mismanagement of this issue? Nope.

The most recent video from CR - he looks like he threw in the towel on hopes of any sort of government aid. Yes, Trudeau needs to go. But we are not the only ones in the industry NOT getting no-strings-attached-government aid, other than CEWS. Is that any reason to deny your own employees a program which can help out families? Not all of the junior pilots are young; we don't live in our parent's basement. Majority of us left good positions at other airlines/military to come here. We have mortgages to pay, children to feed. The job market is quite dried up for us to return to those companies and for decent paying jobs out there.

Did it ever bother ACPA or the management that having a professional Air Canada pilot resort to $2k on CERB is utterly atrocious while CEWS is readily available? How are we supposed to be okay with that with all the sacrifices that we’ve made to get here?

I’m quite surprised the ACPA head office hasn’t been torched and on fire as some of the riots down in the USA - > that’s how pissed off the junior pilots are at this organization.

The country, other airline pilots need to know about this game of abuse. I know you read the memo that a company should be measured by how it treats people during tough times - why bother writing it at all, if no one can stand by it? Yes it was written by a company personnel and not an ACPA member. Not sure which paternalistic narrative by the union or the company, is supposed to make us feel better.

It’s not the junior pilots downgrading the profession, it’s the seniors + senior pilots on the union refusing to stand up for the juniors. There’s a couple junior pilots to be furloughed whereby their father’s retired early to help mitigate the future of their sons. It’s a one off. We were told initially that they had hoped more pilots would have gone for the retirement package, but hey, 10-15k+/month is coming in for no work - life is good right? Why retire? Or rather, why keep silent on the future of AC? The ones being put on the street? But we are not looking for YOUR dollars. We never have; one day we’ll be in YOUR shoes. We’re looking for a government benefit that we as taxpayers have paid into over the years.

ACPA has done more to degrade the profession than any other Canadian pilot union. *mic drop* We are the only airline in Canada with furloughed pilots not on CEWS.

But let's dish out union money to third party companies to conduct "surveys", "job fairs", "resume help"...give me a break.

We were told in our ground schools that we must do our part to protect the airline for future generations - something our children can look forward to.

FACTS: Other airlines extending the wage subsidy greatly helps pilots to actually take care of their children RIGHT NOW during this pandemic.


I’m offended by your comment of “good luck” as a simple dismissal of the burning issues at hand. To drive the point and add salt to the wound - If you had a close family member that was about to go through a tough medical surgery, full of fear, uncertainty - would you simply say, good luck? Or find out about every option that was open to them? What if it was at ZERO cost to you? Would that be asking much?

ACPA needs to dissolve, and adopt the constitutional elements of ALPA; is there a much needed evolution of this union model? YES. As of tomorrow, which ALPA/UNIFOR member airline has their guys on the street, off CEWS?

I’m demanding integrity by those who call us “sisters and brothers”, from management, and the DB'ers. Enough of the charade.

JetBlue - no layoffs until May 2021
Delta - no concessions
Air Canada -> played the union like taking candy from a toothless baby

You want to help out the junior pilots? Set the parking brake and speak up. But I already know you won't. There's no spine. You already sold us out.

Oh...were you one of the ones who voted for the juniors to be on DC vs DB?

The odds of Kanye West winning the presidency are much higher than ACPA doing the right thing.
Ho leee @#$!. I made an account just to tell you I love you.

PREACH.
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TheStig
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by TheStig »

Alkaseltzer,

Looking at the long list of friends and colleagues who are listed as surplus and furloughed is difficult even for those fortunate to have enough seniority to still be able to bid. I've talked with several pilots who are awaiting their 'call' over the past 2 months. It's a tough position to be in but they've all made comments to the same effect, they are among millions of people around the world who are facing a difficult future and uncertainty.

The pilots shown as surplus come from a wide range of work experience from recent grads, to Air Force and industry veterans, I'm not sure where you sit on that spectrum. Everyone deserved a better outcome from their first year at Air Canada than they are going to receive, this sucks.

The CEWS and its $3600/month would be a massive improvement over the CERB. I can't answer for the airlines decision to withdraw from the program or the governments mixed messages and guidance for the CEWS program. I'm not one to defend ACPA but there are 5 unions at AC and 20,000+ employees, some with over 20 years of service, who don't have access to the CEWS program. Yes, CUPE complained to the media, but frankly, that's what CUPE does it makes their membership happy but doesn't achieve much else.

There is no doubt that there have been lots of discussions behind closed doors and Calin Rovinescu has not been candid about his displeasure with the lack of industry specific Government assistance. The Finance Ministers comments yesterday about moving Canadians off the CERB and onto the CEWS is good news.

I'm sure all of this is little consolation when you're out of work and struggling with debt. It's just as easy to write empty words as it is to point fingers (FYI Rowdy and mbav8r won't be voting on your future as they don't fly for AC). There are no good options until the public is flying again.

Your lashing out and demanding the that the DB'ers who 'sold you out' set the brake and dissolve union etc is pretty disrespectful and shows a lack of insight and perspective. It's easy to feel like you don't have anything to loose at this point, but you do. The industry and the airline have been through ups and downs before and hopefully the recovery will be nearly as rapid as the decline in travel.
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altiplano
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by altiplano »

I don't disagree that ACPA could have done better and often lets us down - we were too quick to run to the rescue again and be the first to give - but you seem to (mis)direct your rage all around and be offended by everyone. Not only do you get your facts wrong you also seed division with your comments.
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alkaseltzer
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by alkaseltzer »

TheStig and Altiplano,

CEWS pre-tax is about 80% more than CERB. Adult dancers get CERB, they have no wage. Why must professional Air Canada pilots apply for this as well?

Other factions in the company are receiving CEWS. Why not us?

CEWS is now extended till December. Which will get further extended until a good majority of the population is vaccinated or a snap election is called.

Divisive? Look in the mirror. The furloughed pilots weren't even informed of this last survey, which has grave implications on our future.

Facts are wrong? Today, we are the only airline that has some of their pilots applying for CERB. The ONLY one. Our would-be Transat counterparts are on CEWS...

Why?

We are flying for what quickly became a carrier of national disgrace.

ACPA and Management need to get out of bed together.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

ACPA is an absolute abortion. Theres no other way to put it.

I’ll sum up the situation as best I can:

Furloughing pilots, while the company (union?) doesn’t take advantage of CEWS, while deferring training dates so MAX and Rouge pilots can continue to sit at home with pay, and just as a final “f*ck you” ACPA decides they don’t need to take a haircut on their VOLUNTEER roles, and unilaterally decide to top themselves up.

If it was really about saving the company money, they’d have forced retired the highest paid guys, not the lowest. What’s REALLY going on here?
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ACAV8R
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Re: AC pilot salaries now?

Post by ACAV8R »

+1
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