Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

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CPT.HarshColdReality
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

RRJetPilot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:25 pm How bad is COVID really? (A Swedish doctor’s perspective)

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/08/0 ... ssion=true
Good read.
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fishface
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by fishface »

Good read indeed. We need a fucking reality check.
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pelmet
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by pelmet »

Here is the latest.....Europe has the virus spreading.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/co ... d=msedgdhp

Plus.......

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/brit ... index.html

"The rule change, which came into force at 4 a.m. BST Saturday, also applies to those traveling to the UK from the Netherlands, Monaco, Malta, Turks and Caicos Islands and Aruba."

Seeing as the original post mentioned following the UK example, it appears that these countries can be taken off of AC's list as well.

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:10 am Grece has one third of Canada's population.

Grece had a grand total of 212 Covid deaths. They have an average of 1 death per day this week......

Canada had 9000 deaths and averages 7 deaths per day these days


Germany has two and half times Canada's population

They had 9000 deaths and average 3 deaths per day this week.

Take a deep breath and try Camomille tea
I suspect that Greece will be added to the list as well in the future.
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pelmet
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by pelmet »

Maybe AC needs to be grounded.... "Just this week, public health officials in Waterloo warned that travel-related cases made up 18 per cent of new infections reported in the region last month, with most of those in individuals who had travelled to the United States."

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/tra ... d=msedgdhp

Air Canada is promoting the availability of both “leisure and business” flights to the United States even as that country continues to record explosive growth of coronavirus cases and as federal travel advisories continue to warn against any non-essential travel out of the country.

A recording on the airline’s customer booking telephone line plays the following message:

“Are you eager to reunite with friends and relatives in the U.S? Did you know that Canadians are permitted to travel by air to or from the U.S. for leisure or business? Review our step-by-step guide available on aircanada.com/travelguidelines to see what to expect while travelling.”

Canada has barred all incoming travel from the U.S. by land except in cases where doing so is deemed essential, and does not bar Canadians or eligible American citizens from travelling by air between the two countries.

The U.S., on the other hand, has a prohibition on non-essential entry at land borders but does not prohibit any incoming arrivals from Canada by air for any reason.

The conflicting rules have been described as a loophole and infectious disease experts are warning that since many Canadians likely are not aware the loophole exists, promoting it may have the effect of encouraging travel that puts Canadians at risk of bringing the virus home with them.

“We’re in the time of a pandemic and that sort of undermines all the public health measures in place,” said Dr. Anna Banerji, an infectious disease and global health specialist at the University of Toronto.

“The States are having 100 deaths a day due to the pandemic and it's completely out of control. So to have Canadians go down there for leisure purposes in the middle of a pandemic, it seems to be very unethical and I think that Air Canada really needs to look at what they're doing.”

Air Canada defended its telephone line message in a statement to Global News and said even though government restrictions have caused a “virtual industry shutdown,” the airline has kept up basic operations and that activities like family reunification fall under the classification of leisure travel.

“This has made it possible to ship necessary cargo (including PPE, vital medical goods, essential machinery for business and perishable foods), repatriate Canadians abroad and facilitate required business travel and family reunifications (which are classed as leisure travel),” wrote Peter Fitzpatrick, spokesperson for the airline, in an email.

The Canadian government does not define non-essential travel and instead states that “it is up to the individual to decide what constitutes ‘non-essential travel,’ based on family or business requirements, knowledge of a country or region, and other factors.”

“Recognizing the importance of these services, government regulations for transborder travel specifically make allowances for people to fly between Canada and the U.S.”

He continued: “As a responsible corporation, Air Canada has put in place industry-leading biosafety measures to protect customers and employees travelling with us.”

The Canadian government did change some rules regarding family reunification in June: those changes exempted inbound foreign nationals who are “immediate family members” of Canadians from the ban on non-essential incoming travel.

It makes no mention of reuniting with friends.

Canadians returning from abroad must quarantine for 14 days.

They are required to provide an address and contact information upon re-entering the country and authorities can follow up by phone or in person to ensure they are respecting the quarantine.

Those who break their mandatory quarantine can face maximum penalties up to $750,000 and/or jail months in jail.

Dr. Craig Jenne, an associate professor in the University of Calgary’s department of microbiology, immunology and infectious diseases, said while it’s true airlines are taking many safety precautions to reduce the risk of the virus spreading, much of the risk comes from activities on either end of the flight.

“Just as anything else, especially with COVID, there is no such thing as perfectly safe,” he said.

Just this week, public health officials in Waterloo warned that travel-related cases made up 18 per cent of new infections reported in the region last month, with most of those in individuals who had travelled to the United States.

The United States is the global epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak with cases raging across the country and more than five million cases recorded to date.

More than 150,000 Americans have died so far.

The travel advice right now from the federal government warns Canadians against leaving the country for any non-essential reasons, even where it is possible.

“Avoid non-essential travel outside Canada until further notice,” the travel advisory states.

“While some countries are partially opening their borders, we continue to advise against non-essential travel outside of Canada.”

The U.S. regulations restricting land border crossings define non-essential travel as "travel that is considered tourism or recreational in nature."

Essential travel refers to "work and study, critical infrastructure support, economic services and supply chains, health, immediate medical care, and safety and security."

However, those definitions do not apply in the case of entry by air, rail or sea travel as the U.S. places no restrictions on that under the land border regulations.

Dr. Zain Chagla, an associate professor in McMaster University’s department of medicine and an infectious disease specialist, said he understands the airlines are hurting.

“But at this time, as much as we're dealing with COVID in Canada, the biggest risk for us in Canada for COVID is the rest of the world coming back to Canada,” he said.

Chagla noted the issue will likely come up in other forums as both airlines and other organizations make overtures to lure Canadians, who are viewed as relatively low-risk travelers due to the containment of the virus domestically so far.

“It’s not just airlines, it’s other organizations,” he said.

“There probably should be some social responsibility here in the sense that the border is closed for non-essential travel … but similarly, the messaging should also be coming not necessarily from the private corporations, but from public health and other agencies really to discourage [non-essential] travel.”

Global News asked Transport Minister Marc Garneau and Public Safety Minister Bill Blair why the government has not banned non-essential air travel to the U.S. outright and whether the government believes promoting the existence of an air travel loophole is responsible.

Blair's office referred questions to Global Affairs Canada, which said in a statement that Canadians are "strongly advised" to follow their recommendation to avoid non-essential travel, but that the responsibility is up to travellers.

"While our Government continues to recommend that Canadians avoid non-essential international travel, we recognize that safe and secure air travel is critical for Canadians to connect with loved ones and for those who rely on it to support their businesses," said a spokesperson for Garneau.

"For information on airline operations, I invite you to contact them directly."
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pelmet
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by pelmet »

Almost 4000 new cases in France in one day. Do we want our airlines going there......


https://nationalpost.com/news/world/fra ... 676384068/

Have you changed you mind yet Gilles.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I don’t understand what you do not understand.

Look at the death numbers for France

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ry/france/

I does not matter that there were 4000, 40,000 or 400,000 people who tested positive.

No one is dying from it and the hospitals have no COVID cases. It’s over In France. Like in Canada.

Stop looking at COVID cases. Concentrate on COVID DEATHS.

In the US people are dying of COVID. In Brazil people are dying of COVID. Even in Mexico.

Not in EUROPE.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

pelmet wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:02 am Almost 4000 new cases in France in one day. Do we want our airlines going there......


https://nationalpost.com/news/world/fra ... 676384068/

Have you changed you mind yet Gilles.
Ok, take the time to look at this Live interview, in Spain, By a Spanish TV Station with an ER Doctor in a Spanish Hospital.

The Anchorwoman was being like you, hysterical, asking the doctor about an alarming situation, that she had heard there had been 654 new cases, That the hospitals were full and that it was a catastrophe and that we were all going to die.

The Doctor was making every effort to tell the Anchorwoman that although there were people in the streets testing people and recording positive cases, these positive cases were not showing up in hospitals or morgues and that the situation was not at all as the TV station was attempting to portray.

She insisted. He stood his ground.

You are acting just like her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Please listen to the whole interviews and then please stop your alarmist posts unless it is about a country where people are dying and hospitals are full. And back it up with data. Not news article of the calibre of that Spanish TV Station.
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altiplano
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by altiplano »

That Dr is my new hero. He stood up and called it all out...

"We've lost control of this interview" the journalist says! Indeed they want to control their message of fear.

We need to inoculate against fear the frontline Dr says.
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pelmet
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by pelmet »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:47 pm I don’t understand what you do not understand.

Look at the death numbers for France

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ry/france/

I does not matter that there were 4000, 40,000 or 400,000 people who tested positive.

No one is dying from it and the hospitals have no COVID cases. It’s over In France. Like in Canada.

Stop looking at COVID cases. Concentrate on COVID DEATHS.

In the US people are dying of COVID. In Brazil people are dying of COVID. Even in Mexico.

Not in EUROPE.
I have every expectation that Canadian governments will shut down economies based on cases, not deaths. We still have major employers like CasinoRama are still closed with all those people out of work....because of Covid cases. And according to this article........

Two-thirds of Canadians support closing businesses again if COVID-19 cases spike: survey

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-third ... -1.5011280

So understand that we don't need you and your airline bringing in more cases. Because I understand what will happen if you do.

I am hysterical about what the politicians will do(and are doing to be honest). I believe I read about another 37 billion Justin dollars announced today. It happens so often, I don't even read the details anymore of what it is for despite exceeding, or close to exceeding last years deficit.
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pelmet
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by pelmet »

Another nice thing will be if we can get the cases to zero for a while, we can stop wearing these damn masks.
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CPT.HarshColdReality
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

masks are here to stay for decades if we don't fight back.
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by complexintentions »

pelmet wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:10 pm I am hysterical about what the politicians will do(and are doing to be honest). I believe I read about another 37 billion Justin dollars announced today. It happens so often, I don't even read the details anymore of what it is for despite exceeding, or close to exceeding last years deficit.
Umm..."close to" exceeding?

2019 deficit was about 20 billion dollars.

2020's deficit is over 350 billion dollars - so far. CERB alone is something like 8 billion/month. National debt on track for over a trillion. Highest per-capita Covid spending in the OECD. Good thing the Liberals were being so prudent when the economy was doing well before the virus hit. Oh...wait...

(Fun fact: Pierre Elliott Trudeau ran up about 160 billion dollars of debt 1968-1978. His son has run up 350 billion so far. So 2 prime ministers of the same family are responsible for over half of the entire national debt accumulated over the last 50+ years. And that's without adjusting PET's numbers for inflation. Thanks, ON and QC voters!)

Now JT has Freeland so they can REALLY open the taps without that pesky Morneau guy getting in his way. UBI here we come. Seems people prefer being paid to not work over working. Who knew?

I'm still patriotic but I'm glad I'm not a Canadian tax-payer and my net worth is in USD. The tax man cometh in a big way and so does a weaker CAD. There is no other way.

Let me know if you ever lift the quarantine so I can at least visit family without wasting 2 weeks.
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Rockie »

The ability to overspend on a national scale is essential to soften the blow of emergencies that warrant it, like worldwide pandemics and economic meltdowns in 2008. Criticizing Trudeau or anybody else for that in these times begs the question...what would you do different?

Of course the ability to do that depends on putting our house back in order between emergencies. Our failure to do that is our own fault for our unwillingness to accept a little hardship and bank surpluses to pay down debt. At the end of the day politicians only do what we want, even if we like to blame them for it afterwards.
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Rockie wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:04 am Of course the ability to do that depends on putting our house back in order between emergencies. Our failure to do that is our own fault for our unwillingness to accept a little hardship and bank surpluses to pay down debt. At the end of the day politicians only do what we want, even if we like to blame them for it afterwards.
That pretty much sums it up. Let's just say that Canadians have never, ever shown any reluctance whatsoever to being bribed with their own money. Particularly when program spending of any type, no matter how unnecessary, is referred to as an "investment" of some type. If you're going to bribe me with my own money and saddle me with additional debt and additional taxes to pay for it, at least have the guts to call it what it is: an attempt to ensure re-election.
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Fanblade
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Fanblade »

pelmet wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:57 pm Another nice thing will be if we can get the cases to zero for a while, we can stop wearing these damn masks.
We will never get to zero Covid cases.

Cold viruses mutate quickly making immunity, and a vaccine for that matter, likely futile. We have enough trouble keeping up with the flu and it mutates much slower. Any vaccine produced won’t be like measles where you take it once and you are good. If will be more like the flu shot that we currently get yearly. Only a Covid Vaccine may only protect for a few month. Adding to the Vaccine challenge is that our immune system has a short memory when it comes to colds. It is why we get them year after year after year.

On the positive side, as cold viruses mutate they “normally” become more contagious but less virulent. In other words as Covid mutates we would “expect” to see more cases, but less deaths. This is why we have data directly focussed on cases vs hospitalization and death. This is what happened to H1N1, MERS, SARS etc. They all exist to this day as a cold. CDC monitors them for a bad turn in mutation. Every once in a while you will here an old strain pop up somewhere.

I used “normally” and “expect” deliberately. We expect Covid 19 to mutate like a normal cold virus would. But only scientific data will prove it one way or the other.

There are signs all over the globe currently of Covid cases increasing, while death and hospitalization rates are dropping. Is that the virus mutating as expected? Is that just more testing? Is that Doctors focusing in on those at most risk better? Don’t know, but science will figure it out.

What I do know is that focusing on cases will end. We will start focusing on death/ hospitalization rates and tracking particular strains just like the flu. Just like N1H1, MERS, SARS.

Some people are less cautious and want to push a head immediately as death/hospitalization rates drop. Others are more cautious and want to be ultra slow. Both are rational and understandable responses. We will find a balance so long as we don’t let irrational fear cloud decision making.



What isn’t rational is thinking you can drive Covid cases to zero. It’s too late. It’s here to stay.
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Fanblade »

CDC in US drops quarantine recommendation. Doesn't mean anything if law makers don't act on it. But it is a science based body moving in the direction of easing restrictions. To be fair to lawmakers the science has to come first. Let's see what they start doing now. My bet is a very very reluctant approach to easing.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.afar.c ... ave-to/amp
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Rockie
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Rockie »

The CDC has destroyed their once sterling reputation with the testing fiasco when this all started and by taking orders from the White House.
Unfortunately they are no longer trustworthy for purely scientific guidance as it is tainted by the worst kind of politics.
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by RRJetPilot »

Rockie wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:22 am The CDC has destroyed their once sterling reputation with the testing fiasco when this all started and by taking orders from the White House.
Unfortunately their guidance can no longer be taken as purely scientific and is therefore not trustworthy.
Of course, if it doesn't fit your bias or narrative it must not be "trustworthy". :?
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by Rockie »

RRJetPilot wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:27 am
Rockie wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:22 am The CDC has destroyed their once sterling reputation with the testing fiasco when this all started and by taking orders from the White House.
Unfortunately their guidance can no longer be taken as purely scientific and is therefore not trustworthy.
Of course, if it doesn't fit your bias or narrative it must not be "trustworthy". :?
They botched the test, and they've changed their guidance in the past on orders from the White House. Those are the unfortunate facts that have nothing to do with bias or narrative. Bias is ignoring those facts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educatio ... Fstory-ans

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/1 ... rus-259565
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Re: Science-Based Alternative to Ease Quarantine Act Restrictions

Post by RRJetPilot »

Both very left leaning rags. Do you have any non bias or Center sources for the information you posted?
When I google it all I find is the CDC message at odds with the government and their message consistently put down. So this gives me the impression that the CDC is not taking talking points from Trump.
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