Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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flying4dollars
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by flying4dollars »

trey kule wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:27 am F4$. And others,

I sympathize with your personal situations. I have been there, a couple of times. It seems to be part of an aviation career, though I don't suppose the flight colleges ever mention it.

My point was that employers are generally a bit skittish about hiring someone who will walk out as soon as they get the call. It is a fair concern. And trying to get tothe interview with creative resume writing seems to confirm the impression that “it is all about you”

I have not read one post where a furloughed Pilot applied at a 7-11 or a Macdonalds. Or one of the many other businesses that do not require a great deal of expense and normal business is high turnover. (. Maybe the Fedex).
Furloughed pilot. Entitled pilot. I got bumped so its only fair I bump someone off their career ladder as an (insert IT, engineer, skilled employee, low time 7o3hopeful) until I get the call. Then they can have their job and continue on their career. What ...they are current, and have more experience in their field...so what...I am a pilot and bring all those skills that come with the awesome responsibilities from Sitting in the right seat.
If that means not mentioning being a pilot until I can charm them in the interview, so be it. It is all about me.

I do wish all you that are going through this the best. It will end. At least for most. And then lessons can be learned so the future is not so uncertain.
Trey, I fully agree with you though that an employer would be hesitant to hire a laid off or furloughed pilot. And yes, it is absolutely a fair concern. But getting creative on a resume doesn't make it all about me. The intention was to get the interview, make a case and be honest about my situation, and leave it up to them to choose what to do next. In this particular case, the prospective employer was willing to hire me anyways. Heck, I have had to get creative in a lot of my resumes even for flying jobs. Guess what, it's yielded better results than sending in a cookie cutter resume.

Again, I have financial obligations and a family to help support. I won't apologize for applying for a job I may leave. Think of it this way, if I get the job and aviation goes to hell and I never get called back, it likely means I won't leave if it's a decent enough job. I don't choose to just insert myself into a job opening. I have to be chosen, out of a number of applicants. If the employer thinks I'm best suited and they are willing to hire me knowing if or when my flying employer calls me back, I'll go, then that would be on the employer for hiring me. Not on me for taking the job. I wasn't applying for jobs out of boredom. I applied because my family relies on income. And if I can maintain an income and not go into my savings for that while I sit and wait to see if a recall even happens, then I'm going to take that route.

This isn't about selfishness. It's about financial health (so to speak). Also, you are aware that any pilot could potentially leave their current flying jobs for another job or career, right? It happens. I know a handful of AC and WJ pilots who, even before the pandemic, bounced to go overseas.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by flying4dollars »

iflyforpie wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:07 pm Image
Haha actually I know quite a few laid off pilots who are driving trucks. Seems like a decent gig if you can manage long road trips behind the wheel of something with no autopilot :mrgreen:
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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On a serious note, though.. I’ve seen it from the pilot side, too.

I’ve been a licensed AME for 16 years. Started working in the industry 20 years ago. You think any of that counted for knowing how to fly a plane? Nope. Systems knowledge, aerodynamics, regs, troubleshooting, human factors, situational awareness, integrity, attitude, humility, ability to deal with BS, hard work for low pay and the love of aviation? Forget it. All it really allowed me to do is be able to hang around so I was ready and connected for a flying position when one came along.

Many years ago I decided I had enough of aviation and was going to go into wind turbines. Skill sets were similar. The only positive lead I had was from a guy who used to fly Voodoos who was intrigued by my aviation experience. I wound up not taking the job.. (oh aviation.. I can’t stay mad at you) but believe me.. it’s not just pilots that have a hard time.

I started leaving my AME experience off my pilot resumes.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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iflyforpie wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:57 pm I started leaving my AME experience off my pilot resumes.
iflyforpie just out of curiosity why? Wouldn't employers see a AME licence as an advantage?
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Found wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:22 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:57 pm I started leaving my AME experience off my pilot resumes.
iflyforpie just out of curiosity why? Wouldn't employers see a AME licence as an advantage?
I still keep my AME experience and previous employers. At all three interviews for the three airlines I've worked for, the interviewers seem to be impressed.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by Ash Ketchum »

That's a well written article and I agree with what he says for the most part. I know some on here are mentioning that employers don't want to hire pilots because they will leave as soon as a recall comes which makes sense because it would hurt their business.

I am in the boat where if I found something decently paid which I didn't mind doing and gave me a reasonable lifestyle, I would most likely not return to flying when the recall did come. There is just too much uncertainty and the lifestyle is tough especially with a young family at home.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Found wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:22 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:57 pm I started leaving my AME experience off my pilot resumes.
iflyforpie just out of curiosity why? Wouldn't employers see a AME licence as an advantage?
They see it as an advantage if they are looking for an AME. Wasted my time on a couple of interviews where they asked the question “are you interested in doing wrenching?” and getting a PFO after I said I wasn’t.

I also didn’t have my ATPL. Even though I only needed a few hours to finish it off and had far more practical experience on transport category aircraft I was still behind every flight instructor two years out of training themselves if it was any company with an HR department.

I guess my point is that you still have to have the relevant experience. Non-relevant experience isn’t going to make up for it. It is either non-applicable or is seen as over qualifying you.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by Spitfire0511 »

I definitely identify myself with some of the comments I read here. I have a degree in business and an MBA having worked on this field for close to 15 years. Last 6 years however I worked as a pilot being recently laid off from a major 705 operator. It looks like some employers see this as a disadvantage instead of something positive. They believe because I haven’t worked on my field for the last 6 years that I’ve lost my competences and abilities (like not longer being current on type😆)
The problem is also that the first stage of filtering the resumes is done by junior HR (nothing wrong with being young) who are unable to see beyond an specific job description and are unable to realize the added value of a candidate with additional or different background and what this could bring to the table. Most of the time they have 5 seconds to review a CV and when they see the word “Pilot” they put it aside and move on to the next Resume. Not easy but you have to be creative, work your network, use LinkedIn and other platforms, etc. Good luck and stay positive.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by ayseven »

Just speaking for me, my flying background was seen as important by some people in my work past. By itself, perhaps it isn't that obviously useful, but it tells somebody you were able to perform to a standard, and get pieces of paper to your name. It can work in reverse too, though: flying plus a lot of "education" does not equal an Air Canada interview, but perhaps some Chief Pilots are put off by that.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Spitfire0511 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:31 am I definitely identify myself with some of the comments I read here. I have a degree in business and an MBA having worked on this field for close to 15 years. Last 6 years however I worked as a pilot being recently laid off from a major 705 operator. It looks like some employers see this as a disadvantage instead of something positive. They believe because I haven’t worked on my field for the last 6 years that I’ve lost my competences and abilities (like not longer being current on type😆)
The problem is also that the first stage of filtering the resumes is done by junior HR (nothing wrong with being young) who are unable to see beyond an specific job description and are unable to realize the added value of a candidate with additional or different background and what this could bring to the table. Most of the time they have 5 seconds to review a CV and when they see the word “Pilot” they put it aside and move on to the next Resume. Not easy but you have to be creative, work your network, use LinkedIn and other platforms, etc. Good luck and stay positive.
That sums up my recent job search experience exactly. HR only cares about exact job titles when looking at work history. I have been out of my previous field of work for 5 years and would love to jump back into it even if I was getting a new grad salary. Instead I am getting rejected from interviews because they think I am not current in my field. I am starting to think I have to lie or go back to school to land a half decent job.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

Post by fsantana »

Spitfire0511 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:31 am I definitely identify myself with some of the comments I read here. I have a degree in business and an MBA having worked on this field for close to 15 years. Last 6 years however I worked as a pilot being recently laid off from a major 705 operator. It looks like some employers see this as a disadvantage instead of something positive. They believe because I haven’t worked on my field for the last 6 years that I’ve lost my competences and abilities (like not longer being current on type😆)
The problem is also that the first stage of filtering the resumes is done by junior HR (nothing wrong with being young) who are unable to see beyond an specific job description and are unable to realize the added value of a candidate with additional or different background and what this could bring to the table. Most of the time they have 5 seconds to review a CV and when they see the word “Pilot” they put it aside and move on to the next Resume. Not easy but you have to be creative, work your network, use LinkedIn and other platforms, etc. Good luck and stay positive.
There is one stage prior the junior HR.. is called ATS (applicant tracking system), which is the filter primary filter. If your resume doesn’t make it passed the ATS nobody gets your resume.. Indeed, Workday, and so forth are the ATS that filter your resumes if within the resume those system can’t find specific words, skills, etc... is then “accepted”, scored and sits on the pile with a high possibility of being rejected. Every Job description you see out there is a different resume you’ll need to write and send...

I have sent X amount of resumes in the last three weeks, the time spent rewording the document is incredible to just not receive an single email or call from anybody.. is frustrating, because like it was mentioned here, I also have an MBA having held positions such as Operations Manager, Finance Manager and General Manager and NOTHING...

So hang in there and don’t hang yourselves...

FS
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Post 2020 covid aviation career = "gig" economy job
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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American Airlines’ Rejection Of Pilots’ Early-Retirement Requests Angers Union

American Airlines and the Allied Pilots Association (APA) worked to limit the number of planned furloughs in response to lower demand, but the union says the airline opted for short-term financial gain over saving even more jobs by rejecting early-retirement requests from more than 200 pilots.

The Fort Worth-based carrier said Aug. 25 that it must furlough 1,609 pilots among 19,000 employees that will be let go in the coming weeks. The airline’s original figure was around 2,300 pilots, but 700 opted into one of several volunteer programs to help reduce required furloughs.

But American opted not to grant any early retirements, even though 204 eligible pilots submitted requests as part of the agreed-upon voluntary early-out program (VEOP). The decision means more pilots at the bottom of the seniority list are set to lose their jobs on or after Oct. 1.

“The fact that zero VEOPs were awarded is difficult for any rational person to comprehend, especially in light of senior management’s pledges to do everything in their power to avoid involuntary furloughs,” APA president Eric Ferguson wrote in a message to the pilots Aug. 25. “Both for those pilots denied their requested VEOP, and to those who may be furloughed as a result, it is nothing short of a gut punch.”

American SVP—flight operations Kimball Stone, addressing pilots in an Aug. 25 memo, acknowledged that the VEOP bidding “didn’t turn out as intended or have the desired result.”

Stone said the program, similar to one offered other workers, was extended to pilots to provide them more options. But unlike other employees, pilots have a mandatory retirement age of 65, creating the scenario where a pilot near retirement could cost the company more money via a VEOP than by continuing to work.

“We did not contemplate the high number of pilots with less than one year to retirement that bid for the VEOP, which not only negated the financial benefit of the VEOP, but in reality worsened the economic situation at a time where we can least afford additional expense,” Stone said.

Under the deal struck with APA, American could accept any number of eligible VEOP applicants from the pilot group, but it had to take them in order of seniority. The airline opted to take none.

“This is a disappointment as we all hoped that we could find a mutually acceptable solution with APA, and I believe there was opportunity to do things differently,” Stone said.

The union has a different take.

“They signed a deal they didn’t understand, and then they pulled the rip cord,” an APA spokesperson said.

American did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Aviation Week

Ferguson’s memo emphasized that even though some of the VEOPs many not have been economical on their own, the entire package would have helped the airline with long-term cost savings.

“Succinctly, management is foregoing tens of millions of dollars in savings that would accrue over time if all VEOPs were awarded,” he wrote. “To be clear, the choice to deny all VEOPs was that of management, alone,” Ferguson added.

Neither memo provided details about the VEOP requests.

The union in its memo indicated it would continue to work with the airline to reduce the furlough head count.

“At this stressful and critical juncture, management should reconsider its decision and change its heading into clearer skies,” Ferguson wrote. “To get there, management must entertain a new early-out option with guaranteed awards that offer real and continued furlough mitigation effects.”

Mayhem. It's everywhere we look. Hybernation of our airlines looks to be the more plausible solution with each passing day. If you turn away from aviation to find meaningful employment elsewhere to feed yourself and your family, you might just be saving yourself, your family, and your future.

All the best to those struggling with all of this. There's no easy way out.
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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Re: Non Aviation Employers Don't Respect Pilot Experience

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Ash Ketchum wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:41 pm I have been out of my previous field of work for 5 years and would love to jump back into it even if I was getting a new grad salary. Instead I am getting rejected from interviews because they think I am not current in my field. I am starting to think I have to lie or go back to school to land a half decent job.
Herein lies the problem with the argument that you should do some sort of post secondary as a "backup" career as is often argued on this forum. If you're not active in your field, any field, no one cares that you have an engineering degree, MBA, MD, etc from 20 years ago. If you want a backup income stream, learn to build pools, decks, basements, etc.
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