Potential Airline Bailout

[DanWEC]

Personally I believe the delay in aid is to put AC and possibly TRZ and SWG in a position where the need to give up ownership stake to the gov't.
Aid will be announced this week, but there is absolutely ZERO reason for this to have taken so long if it wasn't intentional. That's the biggest obvious, screaming red flag.

I don't think it's with wild intents of shutting them down for carbon emmisions, that's simply ridiculous, (But they will be kept in check in favour of rail.) but federalization would give the gov the slice of the pie. I think THAT'S what they want. A thinly veiled hostile takeover in order to get a revenue stream.

My first thought when I think of that is one of revolting nasuea... but then I thought, well, why not? What would actually be wrong with a subsidized airline structure? Yes, historically gov management is horrible, but honest question, who would be the losers? Execs and possibly shareholders? I could care less, (Even though 40% of my portfolio is AC stock)
With gov backing, ownership, and political accountability, perhaps WAWCON could be improved for the rest of us? Interesting thoughts.

[gtappl]

Wtf are you talking about? Last time i checked we were one of the largest countries on the planet and a part of the G8. Pull your head out of your ass.

We're irrelevant on the word stage. We're not part of the EU or any trade block that would help us with the vaccine, our neighbors to the south are America first! So no luck there either.

We're large in land mass but that means @#$! all since you didn't realize. Fucking Poland has more people than us. We're 39 on the list.

[EPR]

Wtf are you talking about? Last time i checked we were one of the largest countries on the planet and a part of the G8. Pull your head out of your ass.

We're irrelevant on the word stage. We're not part of the EU or any trade block that would help us with the vaccine, our neighbors to the south are America first! So no luck there either.

We're large in land mass but that means @#$! all since you didn't realize. Fucking Poland has more people than us. We're 39 on the list.

Your logic fails, much like your research! We as a Country are behind in vaccinations compared to other Countries like Serbia, Iceland, Bahrain, Ireland, Malta, Romania, Switzerland, Poland...just to name a few! What the actual @#$! are you talking about!?!

[gtappl]

Wtf are you talking about? Last time i checked we were one of the largest countries on the planet and a part of the G8. Pull your head out of your ass.

We're irrelevant on the word stage. We're not part of the EU or any trade block that would help us with the vaccine, our neighbors to the south are America first! So no luck there either.

We're large in land mass but that means @#$! all since you didn't realize. Fucking Poland has more people than us. We're 39 on the list.

Your logic fails, much like your research! We as a Country are behind in vaccinations compared to other Countries like Serbia, Iceland, Bahrain, Ireland, Malta, Romania, Switzerland, Poland...just to name a few! What the actual @#$! are you talking about!?!

Is your reading comprehension this bad? Half those countries are in the EU/Euro zone which I already mentioned. And except for Poland all are a lot smaller than us, and more centralized. The phizer stuff needs to be kept at insanely low temperatures and it's easier to do that when your country has less people than 1 Toronto suburb.

[GATRKGA]

Personally I believe the delay in aid is to put AC and possibly TRZ and SWG in a position where the need to give up ownership stake to the gov't.
Aid will be announced this week, but there is absolutely ZERO reason for this to have taken so long if it wasn't intentional. That's the biggest obvious, screaming red flag.

I don't think it's with wild intents of shutting them down for carbon emmisions, that's simply ridiculous, (But they will be kept in check in favour of rail.) but federalization would give the gov the slice of the pie. I think THAT'S what they want. A thinly veiled hostile takeover in order to get a revenue stream.

My first thought when I think of that is one of revolting nasuea... but then I thought, well, why not? What would actually be wrong with a subsidized airline structure? Yes, historically gov management is horrible, but honest question, who would be the losers? Execs and possibly shareholders? I could care less, (Even though 40% of my portfolio is AC stock)
With gov backing, ownership, and political accountability, perhaps WAWCON could be improved for the rest of us? Interesting thoughts.

So airline pilots have a shot at becoming government workers with a DB pension? Interesting thought indeed.

Perhaps the government doesn't like how they missed out on the massive balance sheet AC put out, and like you said, they want a piece of the pie.

[TrilliumFlt]

I suspect that the "voluntary" cancellation of Caribbean routes, timed to coincide with Spring travel plans was negotiated. It gives the appearance of industry co-operation; an olive branch as it where, in return for a Federal government announcement. Standby for new ATIS message.

[Fanblade]

I suspect that the "voluntary" cancellation of Caribbean routes, timed to coincide with Spring travel plans was negotiated. It gives the appearance of industry co-operation; an olive branch as it where, in return for a Federal government announcement. Standby for new ATIS message.

I know a lot of people are thinking that way, but the Minister of Transportation said otherwise. That the Government told the airlines what they were about to do and the airlines decided to fold their hand.

It has been nearly 11 months and no aid. The government has been, and still is demanding airlines refund all tickets first. The Government knows full well that would tip some of them into CCAA and therefor they can’t comply.

Yet they won’t walk back from their manufactured stalemate designed to paint the airlines in poor light.

The question is why.

There is lots of speculation. Everything from poor information to ministers claiming airlines are flush with cash. (Onex is rich right?) To the Libs polling telling them aid is unpopular, and want to avoid it heading into election. To an opportunity to reduce aviation’s carbon foot print. To nationalize Canada’s airlines.

Fact is we don’t know why. My odds of favourite is number one. Straight up incompetence. It’s probably number two though. Canadians are passionate about hating airlines. I have no doubt the polling is telling them to avoid airline aid at all costs. The carbon/build back green angle. Maybe. Nationalize? I really doubt it.

What I would expect is more of the same. No aid. They are a minority government fighting for every vote today. Today airlines bad.

[TrilliumFlt]

I suspect that the "voluntary" cancellation of Caribbean routes, timed to coincide with Spring travel plans was negotiated. It gives the appearance of industry co-operation; an olive branch as it where, in return for a Federal government announcement. Standby for new ATIS message.

I know a lot of people are thinking that way, but the Minister of Transportation said otherwise. That the Government told the airlines what they were about to do and the airlines decided to fold their hand.

It has been nearly 11 months and no aid. The government has been, and still is demanding airlines refund all tickets first. The Government knows full well that would tip some of them into CCAA and therefor they can’t comply.

Yet they won’t walk back from their manufactured stalemate designed to paint the airlines in poor light.

The question is why.

There is lots of speculation. Everything from poor information to ministers claiming airlines are flush with cash. (Onex is rich right?) To the Libs polling telling them aid is unpopular, and want to avoid it heading into election. To an opportunity to reduce aviation’s carbon foot print. To nationalize Canada’s airlines.

Fact is we don’t know why. My odds of favourite is number one. Straight up incompetence. It’s probably number two though. Canadians are passionate about hating airlines. I have no doubt the polling is telling them to avoid airline aid at all costs. The carbon/build back green angle. Maybe. Nationalize? I really doubt it.

What I would expect is more of the same. No aid. They are a minority government fighting for every vote today. Today airlines bad.

Ah nuts; so much for my "stein half full" thinking, I had been attempting to stay positive since the alternative is somewhat depressing.

[DanWEC]

There's always the fact that CCAA would pretty much eliminate the requirement to give refunds to customers, could be another theoretical angle by airlines, but unlikely. For AC and TRZ that would mean intentionally devaluing the company and stock, and shirking their corporate accountability which isn't generally accepted, or legal, unless it can be packaged as a poison pill scenario.
Also, the gov't would have been screaming through the CBC that aid is available and the evil airlines haven't taken it, which would give them the biggest raging hard-on.
Just trying to come up with more conspiracy theories for this utterly insane situation we're still enduring. BTW, want to go somewhere right now? You have your choice of giving your money to just about any foreign carrier right now. United is even targeting Canadian's with ads for Caribbean flights! I just can't wrap my head around the utter financial mismanagement of this whole thing. Complete failure.

By the way, here's a fun quote by the then-opposition Liberal leader, regarding the collapse of Nortel....

"A Liberal government will stand up for flagship Canadian companies, and that sentiment will play well on the Street, not because it is protectionist, but simply because business leaders want to see a degree of support from politicians.
Stephen Harper dropped the ball on Nortel. He let a Canadian champion fail, and sat back while invaluable pieces of intellectual property were sold off to foreign bidders. The fact that the Conservatives have refused to even review that sale is astounding. It's dereliction of duty. It's the Avro Arrow all over again"


LOL!!! So the Liberals will protect flagship Canadian companies eh? So where are you now, idiots?

[pelmet]

LOL!!! So the Liberals will protect flagship Canadian companies eh? So where are you now, idiots?

Where are they? They are fulfilling their promises in the last election. Reducing Canada's carbon footprint. I would assume that anybody who voted for them knew that.

Greta almost got everything she wanted the other day with the only reason for not having all airlines grounded being certain essential services. I'm sure they will think of something to add more people in the airline industry to the pipeline workers plight. All part of the campaign promise.

" We even considered banning all flights.

Omar Alghabra

“We thought very hard about it and we considered all options,” he said.

While Alghabra admitted that officials “even considered banning all flights,” they concluded that it would have a detrimental effect on the delivery of essential products and services across the country.

"So we wanted to make sure that we don't have a negative impact on other important aspects of our society and our economy” he explained.

Instead, Justin Trudeau announced that all incoming air passengers would be required to take a COVID-19 test upon arrival in Canada, in addition to the proof of a negative test required before boarding a flight into the country.

In addition, travellers must complete several days of mandatory quarantine in a government-approved hotel while they await their test results.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/tra ... d=msedgntp

[gtappl]

LOL!!! So the Liberals will protect flagship Canadian companies eh? So where are you now, idiots?

Where are they? They are fulfilling their promises in the last election. Reducing Canada's carbon footprint. I would assume that anybody who voted for them knew that.

Greta almost got everything she wanted the other day with the only reason for not having all airlines grounded being certain essential services. I'm sure they will think of something to add more people in the airline industry to the pipeline workers plight. All part of the campaign promise.

" We even considered banning all flights.

Omar Alghabra

“We thought very hard about it and we considered all options,” he said.

While Alghabra admitted that officials “even considered banning all flights,” they concluded that it would have a detrimental effect on the delivery of essential products and services across the country.

"So we wanted to make sure that we don't have a negative impact on other important aspects of our society and our economy” he explained.

Instead, Justin Trudeau announced that all incoming air passengers would be required to take a COVID-19 test upon arrival in Canada, in addition to the proof of a negative test required before boarding a flight into the country.

In addition, travellers must complete several days of mandatory quarantine in a government-approved hotel while they await their test results.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/tra ... d=msedgntp

How does it feel having so many people living in your head rent free?

[EPR]

We're irrelevant on the word stage. We're not part of the EU or any trade block that would help us with the vaccine, our neighbors to the south are America first! So no luck there either.

We're large in land mass but that means @#$! all since you didn't realize. Fucking Poland has more people than us. We're 39 on the list.

Your logic fails, much like your research! We as a Country are behind in vaccinations compared to other Countries like Serbia, Iceland, Bahrain, Ireland, Malta, Romania, Switzerland, Poland...just to name a few! What the actual @#$! are you talking about!?!

Is your reading comprehension this bad? Half those countries are in the EU/Euro zone which I already mentioned. And except for Poland all are a lot smaller than us, and more centralized. The phizer stuff needs to be kept at insanely low temperatures and it's easier to do that when your country has less people than 1 Toronto suburb.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnis ... es-dwindle

[Dias]

Now that Sunwing has got their government bailout I imagine everyone else will be getting one too.

Edit: It's just a high interest loan. Not much help as most airlines could get cheaper loans elsewhere.

[JoeShmoe]

I dunno guys, airlines over the last 20 years have slowly been turning all of their public good will into profit. Smaller seats, charging for bags, charging for everything. We all grumbled about it but when it came time for profit sharing no one complained. I cant help but think this is simply the consequence of that trade off, and even sometimes side with the public on their opinion of what airlines deserve.

Its similar to whats happening with hedge funds right now, if I ran a hedge fund and lost 70 billion dollars on gamestop over the last month, I would also be crying foul and they probably have a good point. But they spent all their good will when we bailed them out during the financial crises, and nobody really cares what happens to them now.

[digits_]

I dunno guys, airlines over the last 20 years have slowly been turning all of their public good will into profit. Smaller seats, charging for bags, charging for everything. We all grumbled about it but when it came time for profit sharing no one complained. I cant help but think this is simply the consequence of that trade off, and even sometimes side with the public on their opinion of what airlines deserve.

And to top it off: "We will cancel the flights for which you have paid tickets, but we will not refund you, because we already spent your money and we do not want to be responsible for those financial risks we took."

This in a time where the government is handing out money to affected citizens. Is anyone surprised bailing out airlines is not a priority

[DanWEC]

Now that Sunwing has got their government bailout I imagine everyone else will be getting one too.

Edit: It's just a high interest loan. Not much help as most airlines could get cheaper loans elsewhere.

Yep, it's actually the opposite of encouraging. It's a last resort loan which balloons to 14% after a few years. It's like going to Money Mart.

Recent words from Omar Alghabra, can we continue to hammer these words back at them through letters and social media? Are these just utter bald faced lies?

He said: "Our government understands that a STRONG air sector is VITAL for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians"

Maybe if they hear their own words over and over it'll sink in and not just be pointless fluff?

Our government understands that a strong air sector is vital for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians
Our government understands that a strong air sector is vital for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians
Our government understands that a strong air sector is vital for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians

[digits_]

Now that Sunwing has got their government bailout I imagine everyone else will be getting one too.

Edit: It's just a high interest loan. Not much help as most airlines could get cheaper loans elsewhere.

Yep, it's actually the opposite of encouraging. It's a last resort loan which balloons to 14% after a few years. It's like going to Money Mart.

Recent words from Omar Alghabra, can we continue to hammer these words back at them through letters and social media? Are these just utter bald faced lies?

He said: "Our government understands that a STRONG air sector is VITAL for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians"

Maybe if they hear their own words over and over it'll sink in and not just be pointless fluff?

They are talking about the sector as a whole, not specific companies.

What would be stronger: a sector with start ups with limited debts (and assets that would probably appreciate the first few years), or a sector with established companies suffering from huge debts?

[altiplano]

Now that Sunwing has got their government bailout I imagine everyone else will be getting one too.

Edit: It's just a high interest loan. Not much help as most airlines could get cheaper loans elsewhere.

Yep, it's actually the opposite of encouraging. It's a last resort loan which balloons to 14% after a few years. It's like going to Money Mart.

Recent words from Omar Alghabra, can we continue to hammer these words back at them through letters and social media? Are these just utter bald faced lies?

He said: "Our government understands that a STRONG air sector is VITAL for Canada’s economy and the well-being of Canadians"

Maybe if they hear their own words over and over it'll sink in and not just be pointless fluff?

They are talking about the sector as a whole, not specific companies.

What would be stronger: a sector with start ups with limited debts (and assets that would probably appreciate the first few years), or a sector with established companies suffering from huge debts?

Because that capital required for a startup to acquire a fleet of aircraft and everything to support it and sink into developing and launching a route network isn't "debt."

That doesn't just appear all fresh to fill a void, bright eyed, with no debt.

[digits_]

Because that capital required for a startup to acquire a fleet of aircraft and everything to support it and sink into developing and launching a route network isn't "debt."

That doesn't just appear all fresh to fill a void, bright eyed, with no debt.

True, but the start up would be able to buy up whatever pieces the defaulted airline leaves behind. Even buying airplanes or securing leases at this time would be much cheaper and probably turn a profit in a few years. A new company rising out of the ashes of the old one happens a lot. Given the current circumstances, the new company would most likey be more profitable by doing the same thing as the old company would have done.

The employees would be left holding the short straw of course, as usual

[gtappl]

Your logic fails, much like your research! We as a Country are behind in vaccinations compared to other Countries like Serbia, Iceland, Bahrain, Ireland, Malta, Romania, Switzerland, Poland...just to name a few! What the actual @#$! are you talking about!?!

Is your reading comprehension this bad? Half those countries are in the EU/Euro zone which I already mentioned. And except for Poland all are a lot smaller than us, and more centralized. The phizer stuff needs to be kept at insanely low temperatures and it's easier to do that when your country has less people than 1 Toronto suburb.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnis ... es-dwindle

An opinion piece from the sun? A gem of journalism /s