Potential Airline Bailout

[2112]

How about 338 independant's elected to the HOC, call it our version of the great reset while the party system is on forced time out.

['97 Tercel]

[Dh8Classic]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

[Ruddervator]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

Don't believe me? Read this excerpt from O'Toole's platform:

Increasing competition: The best way to ensure that people are getting good quality at a fair price is to ensure that there is competition. Far too often in Canada, though, this is not the case. Our laws all too often protect big businesses and their highly paid executives at the expense of Canadian consumers. An O’Toole government will take steps to end this to make life more affordable:

A: Making big corporations compete. Canadians pay too much because too many of our big corporations are coddled and protected by a government that serves them more than it serves the people.

B: I will open airline and wireless services to foreign competition. Giving the Competition Bureau more teeth to go after anti-competitive behaviour, block mergers that reduce competition and have turned too many industries into oligopolies and break up companies that abuse their dominant market positions.

[gtappl]

[gtappl]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

There's a nearly endless list of people living in your head rent free it seems?

[Stinky]

Another bailout!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2A8239

[Dh8Classic]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

Don't believe me? Read this excerpt from O'Toole's platform:

Increasing competition: The best way to ensure that people are getting good quality at a fair price is to ensure that there is competition. Far too often in Canada, though, this is not the case. Our laws all too often protect big businesses and their highly paid executives at the expense of Canadian consumers. An O’Toole government will take steps to end this to make life more affordable:

A: Making big corporations compete. Canadians pay too much because too many of our big corporations are coddled and protected by a government that serves them more than it serves the people.

B: I will open airline and wireless services to foreign competition. Giving the Competition Bureau more teeth to go after anti-competitive behaviour, block mergers that reduce competition and have turned too many industries into oligopolies and break up companies that abuse their dominant market positions.

Maybe the AT merger would not happen then. Another monopoly. Foreign competition coming in means new airlines and new jobs. Sounds like something we could use right now. And there would probably be some sort of bailout. Don't expect any money from those taking advice from Greta. She might get upset again like her UN speech.

[gtappl]

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

Don't believe me? Read this excerpt from O'Toole's platform:

Increasing competition: The best way to ensure that people are getting good quality at a fair price is to ensure that there is competition. Far too often in Canada, though, this is not the case. Our laws all too often protect big businesses and their highly paid executives at the expense of Canadian consumers. An O’Toole government will take steps to end this to make life more affordable:

A: Making big corporations compete. Canadians pay too much because too many of our big corporations are coddled and protected by a government that serves them more than it serves the people.

B: I will open airline and wireless services to foreign competition. Giving the Competition Bureau more teeth to go after anti-competitive behaviour, block mergers that reduce competition and have turned too many industries into oligopolies and break up companies that abuse their dominant market positions.

Maybe the AT merger would not happen then. Another monopoly. Foreign competition coming in means new airlines and new jobs. Sounds like something we could use right now. And there would probably be some sort of bailout. Don't expect any money from those taking advice from Greta. She might get upset again like her UN speech.

The only one who has mentioned Greta is you! Minus a few gate agents what jobs are you expecting to add? International business travel is the only thing worthwhile to other airlines to invest in. And with the way things are changing business travel will be way down for a long time. So who do you think will dump money into our parket?

From what I understand, AC is "forced" to run some unprofitable routes to connect rural parts of Canada. If o'toole gets his way those routes are probably gone.

[DanWEC]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

[altiplano]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

[gtappl]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

[altiplano]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

And that shows that they lack integrity.

You have to make the hard or unpopular choice sometimes for what's right.

['97 Tercel]

The only one who has mentioned Greta is you!

Greta.

[Cavalier44]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[Ruddervator]

Even if that means breaking up Air Canada into smaller pieces?

[DanWEC]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree in principle with what you're saying. However, in aviation, our operations are currently at a disadvantage to foreign operators because of our operating environment- economically and geographical. Low population, high taxes/fees/expenses, expensive operating envelope. Most large foreign airlines that would have the means to operate here either have much higher revenue stream from other routes that could subsidize operations here, or they're subsidized by their own government, so it's not a level playing field.

There would have to be tariffs, etc. But a more holistic approach would be, along the lines of what you're saying; fix our structure entirely. How about if the gov't would have to make it easier to operate our domestic airlines (Insert any other business here as well) here instead of making it more difficult for foreign ones?

And yes, fix the shill of a union that ACPA is!

[mbav8r]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

[Cavalier44]

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

I agree with you - however, the premise of my argument is based on pre-COVID conditions which obviously do not reflect our current reality. The question was whether or not increased competition is inherently bad for Canadian aviation workers, and whether it would lead to a decline in wages as a result of cost-cutting. All things being equal, my argument is that increased competition is not necessarily a bad thing for Canadian aviation workers as long as we make our collective bargaining units more effective and accountable.

Of course, in a post-COVID world, Canadian airlines are not playing on a level playing field when our competition is being subsidized and we're being left to fend for ourselves. If a new, Conservative government were to open up the aviation industry to increased foreign competition, there would certainly have to be a proportionate level of support in place for Canadian airlines to ensure they're being given a level playing field.

[gtappl]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

And that shows that they lack integrity.

You have to make the hard or unpopular choice sometimes for what's right.

I don't think anyone here believes either side has a shred of integrity.