Yet another set back(Pilot training at Lufthansa)

[mbav8r]

In a nutshell, now going through Lufthansa training does not guarantee a job, which makes sense but is a sign that the shortage will be much, much further down the road if at all.
https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-pilo ... reamlined/
“Pilots on the Lufthansa training program were typically hired by the airline at the end of the course. After the course, the airline maintains that graduates will be recruited by the Lufthansa Group’s airlines depended on the demand at the time of hiring”

[digits_]

In a nutshell, now going through Lufthansa training does not guarantee a job, which makes sense but is a sign that the shortage will be much, much further down the road if at all.
https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-pilo ... reamlined/
“Pilots on the Lufthansa training program were typically hired by the airline at the end of the course. After the course, the airline maintains that graduates will be recruited by the Lufthansa Group’s airlines depended on the demand at the time of hiring”

Are the students paying for this training?

[mbav8r]

I don’t know but it’s implied, I believe pre pandemic it was some type of long term bond. I would expect the new model will have the cost borne by the student.
“Last year the airline’s training department gave students the option of ending their training without cost or transferring to another flight school given the perceived lack of hiring opportunities.”

[digits_]

It's a shame. Understandable I guess as well. But they always have been from the philosophy of attracting as many applicants as possible, giving them a chance and selecting the best they could find. Hope they can maintain those standards.

[Launchpad1]

I wonder how many 100,000s of euros that training costs the trainee or their parents. The aviation industry in europe is partly propped up by fleecing wannabe Pilots.

[newlygrounded]

I wonder how many 100,000s of euros that training costs the trainee or their parents. The aviation industry in europe is partly propped up by fleecing wannabe Pilots.

How is this country any different? At least none of them live in the arctic and get paid $20k a year to toss bags in Europe

[digits_]

I wonder how many 100,000s of euros that training costs the trainee or their parents. The aviation industry in europe is partly propped up by fleecing wannabe Pilots.

How is this country any different? At least none of them live in the arctic and get paid $20k a year to toss bags in Europe

There aren't a lot of Canadian pilots that have paid for a typerating to get a job interview. That's a 60k CAD saving.

[Launchpad1]

How is this country any different? At least none of them live in the arctic and get paid $20k a year to toss bags in Europe

How many airlines in Canada charge $500 just to look at your resume? No joke, that happens in Europe.

I've got experience of both and unless you are lucky enough to have millionaire parents Canada gives you a much better environment.

[newlygrounded]

I wonder how many 100,000s of euros that training costs the trainee or their parents. The aviation industry in europe is partly propped up by fleecing wannabe Pilots.

How is this country any different? At least none of them live in the arctic and get paid $20k a year to toss bags in Europe

There aren't a lot of Canadian pilots that have paid for a typerating to get a job interview. That's a 60k CAD saving.

A type rating isn't 60k, but lets do some math. You have to work 8 years in Canada to make what an easyjet FO does OUT OF SCHOOL, and many of those years you're making under 35k. I don't like how their system is setup but our opportunity cost is waaaaay higher.

How is this country any different? At least none of them live in the arctic and get paid $20k a year to toss bags in Europe

How many airlines in Canada charge $500 just to look at your resume? No joke, that happens in Europe.

I've got experience of both and unless you are lucky enough to have millionaire parents Canada gives you a much better environment.

How many Europeans have to do a 10,000km road trip to find a job making min wage? But you said you've been through both so I'm curious what am I missing since I know there is likely a lot!

[digits_]

A type rating isn't 60k, but lets do some math. You have to work 8 years in Canada to make what an easyjet FO does OUT OF SCHOOL, and many of those years you're making under 35k. I don't like how their system is setup but our opportunity cost is waaaaay higher.

Ryanair was promoting typerating courses, self funded, 5 years ago for about 36k EUR if memory serves correctly. Add to that a mandatory MCC course (3.5k) and a Jet Orientation Course (5k), and you'll be over 40k EUR. That's over 60k CAD. And the type rating course guaranteed an interview, *not* a flying position. 90% of the typerating attendees got a ryanair job. Must be fun if you pay 40k EUR only to be told the economics changed and they won't offer you a job!

The Dutch had integrated training programs costing about 120k EUR, which you needed if you wanted a *chance* to work at their national carrier. It's insane.

But yes, if you do manage to find a pilot job, financially you'd be better off in Europe when starting out. Problem is, most people don't find one.

How many Europeans have to do a 10,000km road trip to find a job making min wage? But you said you've been through both so I'm curious what am I missing since I know there is likely a lot!

Depends on what you mean by road trip. Travelling to all places to attend selections and interviews? That happens. Could be 10000km for some people, only 100 km for others, depending on where you live. The biggest reason why people don't do the road trips, is because there are no places where a road trip would have any effect. No European airline is going to hire anyone just for showing up. They have very structured rigourous selection processes because they put 250 hour pilots in a B737 or A320.

People who don't get those jobs either work in their other career, do min wage jobs somewhere else, or wait around at home until they find a pilot job.

[Launchpad1]

How many Europeans have to do a 10,000km road trip to find a job making min wage? But you said you've been through both so I'm curious what am I missing since I know there is likely a lot!

Well neither system is perfect that's for sure.

This didn't happen to me because I did the modular route quite a few years ago but now in Europe to get a job you have to do the integrated route.

What this means is that, unless you are lucky enough to have very wealthy parents, the only way the huge over inflated training costs can be paid for is that either you or your parents take out a massive loan.

Would you rather have to spend some time up in the bush, an experience that could have its good sides, or get either yourself or your parents into massive debt.

[North Shore]

Would you rather have to spend some time up in the bush, an experience that could have its good sides, or get either yourself or your parents into massive debt.

I'd take 'some time up in the bush' every day, and twice on Sundays. Had more fun, saw more stuff, got more interesting stories than you ever would spending nights in a hotel in [insert European city name here]

[rigpiggy]

I have more stories than "the catering truck was late, we had to get in the deice conga line, or autopilot 2 was U/S and we couldn't autoland

[newlygrounded]

I have more stories than "the catering truck was late, we had to get in the deice conga line, or autopilot 2 was U/S and we couldn't autoland

You give up a lot to get that though IMO

[“Bob”]

I think that just about everyone is going to come up with some sort of validation as to why their career is better than others. Money. Lifestyle. Experiences. Metal.

But none of it matters at all......... except to you. If someone is dropping their trousers and getting out the measuring tape, that’s their insecurity and need for validation, not yours. If you’re doing it......... I’ll tell you a secret, you’ll never win.


But I do find a common trend. Bush pilots are poorer than airline pilots.

I mean, I could say I own a large rural property that most airline captains dream of having and if that property was in the GTA or Lower Mainland it would be the equivalent of tens of millions of dollars or something ridiculous like that.

Or I could say that I make more than an airline captain per flight hour because I only fly a few hours and get half the year off to do what I want to do.

But when it comes to total earnings and my eventual net worth. Not even close. A career FO or regional captain will out earn me.


But the other common trend is that airline pilots are usually more miserable than bush pilots. Stuck in a seniority system that values length of service over performance and merit. Knowing that even if you came with bush or military experience that some spoiled brat who’s daddy paid for his training and gave him an allowance when he worked in dispatch got to the door before you did, and he will always earn more than you, have a better schedule than you, get upgraded before you, and his seat is secure in the case of unprecedented economic turmoil. The low pay to start. The commuting and crash pads. The long times away from home. Being stuck at one company forever because if you change jobs you lose all of that seniority.

I see a thread on an airline pilot trying to figure out joint custody of his kids on his schedule. What’s that worth? What is he giving up vs a flying job in his hometown where he’s home every night? Money is only one means to achieve happiness and too ruthless pursuit of it can incur too high of a cost.

The experiences? HA! Most of mine are interesting stories from bad experiences I had that I much rather would have avoided. Lots of good ones. Lots of cool ones. But they are for me, not anyone else. There will be some who like an autopilot failure story. Maybe you don’t even need an autopilot as you hand fly it down to zero zero because you have a HUD. I think that’s cool. I don’t think that waiting for the dockhand to load the barrels or having a bad mag or the 1000th trip to Fort Scrotum is all that interesting.

Do whatever you want. Or whatever you can in this industry. I’m sitting next to guys from nearly all the major airlines in this country who are thankful to be working. I was jealous of them. Now they are jealous of me. In a couple of years I’ll be jealous of them again. It just doesn’t matter.