Hawkair / Suncor close call Fort MacKay

[cggnl]

From The Aviation Hearld .... happened Jan 05 2009

A Hawkair Aviation Services Dash 8-300 registration C-FIDL was about to take off runway 16 at the uncontrolled airfield of Fort MacKay, AB (Canada) during nighttime in blowing snow and visibility of 1.5 miles and held before the runway due to an arriving aircraft, a Corporate Canadair CL-600 registration C-GSUA. The crew of C-FIDL had talked to the airport operator and ensured, there was no other inbound aircraft.

G-SUA landed and was just turning around at the threshold of runway 34 to backtrack the runway, when C-FIDL taxied into position and began their takeoff roll. A radio call, that C-GSUA was still on the runway, came too late with C-FIDL already above decision speed V1, so that the crew continued their takeoff and climbed over the CL-600, which at that point was perpendicular to the runway.

Hawkair advised, that they are changing their operating procedures requiring crews to not taxi onto runways of uncontrolled airfields unless there are daytime VFR conditions or it has been confirmed, that all traffic has cleared the runway by communicating directly with possible conflicting aircraft.

Rgds

[ScudRunner]

So let me get this straight the Hawk Air Pilots where holding short of the runway, then call the Airport operator (however one does that) and they say nothings inbound. So they don't see the Challenger landing or hear any calls or make any calls or get a response from there calls etc etc. So they hit the power the challenger doesn't make a call in the back track, or hawk air doesn't hear them and they don't make a departing call or the challenger doesn't here them.

Hawkair advised, that they are changing their operating procedures requiring crews to not taxi onto runways of uncontrolled airfields unless there are daytime VFR conditions or it has been confirmed, that all traffic has cleared the runway by communicating directly with possible conflicting aircraft.

So they need to change there operating procedure to reflect this basic element of flying an airplane.


Maybe they forgot to say "any conflicts please advise"

[Donald]

Ridley, Rod
Date: 2009/01/13
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: A Suncor Energy Canadair CL-600-2D24 (CRJ 900), C-GSUA, had landed on Runway 16 at the Fort Mackay/Firebag airport and was in the process of turning around at the threshold of Runway 34 in order to backtrack on the runway. Meanwhile, a Hawkair de Havilland DHC-8-300, C-FIDL, had taxied to position on Runway 16. Although the crew of C-GSUA had advised that they were backtracking, the crew of the DHC-8 did not hear the transmission and initiated the take-off while C-GSUA was perpendicular to the runway at the departure end. The DHC-8 crew was advised during the roll that C-GSUA was still on the runway, but had passed through their V1 speed and continued with the take-off. Prior to departure the DHC-8 crew had confirmed with the airport cab operator that there were no further incoming aircraft prior to departure. Visibility at the time of the occurrence was reported to be 1 1/2 mile in blowing snow (and also at night.) Hawkair has advised that they will be amending their operations manual to include the following information: when operating at uncontrolled aerodromes, unless conditions are daytime VFR, flight crews will not taxi onto a runway unless it has been confirmed that all traffic has cleared the runway by communicating directly with any possible conflicting traffic.

[2R]

Did these guys actually meet contrails requirements

[flying4dollars]

F*ckin eh...

Good thid the RJ was at the end of the runway and it was only a dash 8 taking off and not a 737.

Long runway too...otherwise this wouldn't have ended well for either aircraft.

[PT6-114A]

when C-FIDL taxied into position and began their takeoff roll. A radio call, that C-GSUA was still on the runway, came too late with C-FIDL already above decision speed V1, so that the crew continued their takeoff and climbed over the CL-600,

I call bull shit!! the first call from the dash after takeoff was "So what was wrong with our departure?". What is V1 on an empty dash 8 into 15 KTS of wind?
How do you sit and watch a plane land then go to position and role and not ask your self where did that plane go?

[swede]

Nice to see all the armchair experts are at it again with their monday morning qtrbacking - somethings just never change

[peterpan8]

glad to see nothing has changed on Av Can. Still the same empty headed replies, claiming they have the miraculous solutions to all aviations problems...

[PT6-114A]

Nice to see all the armchair experts are at it again with their monday morning qtrbacking - somethings just never change

And just maybe some of us were there and watched it all happen!! so if that is armchairing it than ya I dont know what im talking about.

[Cat Driver]

glad to see nothing has changed on Av Can. Still the same empty headed replies, claiming they have the miraculous solutions to all aviations problems...

Now that you are here you can educate all us empty headed Avcanada people.

Does the 8 after peterpan mean you drive a Dash8?

[ScudRunner]

glad to see nothing has changed on Av Can. Still the same empty headed replies, claiming they have the miraculous solutions to all aviations problems...

So trying to hash out the who what where of a potential disaster that could have claimed many lives is "empty headed". Perhaps you could offer some insight into this incident, I think that trying to figure out an incident to learn from it to prevent a future accident everyone's opinion is valid but just to throw up a one post wonder like that is far from constructive.

And I don't think all of us Arm chairing in this thread, Some had a front row seat.

[Four1oh]

How is anyone supposed to learn about other people's mistakes when the second someone tries to speculate(understand) what happened, they get jumped on? Are we that PC that no one is allowed to have hurt feelings in the name of safety? I for one, know that I won't possibly survive all the potential mistakes I could make throughout my career if I didn't read about or talk about how others have screwed up. That's probably why I have never geared up a plane, and probably never will(for example).

[Niteflyer]

Have to agree with PT6 on this one. The blame for this lies completely with the Hawk Captain. Sorry. No one else but him/her to blame. That being said, yes, new procedures, new look at the captain and see what happened. The reason for being distracted is where the investigation would start. What was going on in that cockpit at the time?

This is a very serious incident, I'm sure everyone is looking at it that way. A collision would no doubt have resulted in fatalities.

[twinpratts]

Doesn't anyone use TCAS out there?

[Four1oh]

it's inhibited on the ground or at low alt.

[Fatass]

Only RA's are inhibited at low level (1000 feet on decent and I believe 500 feet on take off). TA is still available provided the necessary transponders are on.

[rigpiggy]

Uhh, No, when on the ground the traffic will disappear from the display at 400' at least on my bird.

[Carrier]

Hawkair has never recovered from this debacle. It lost a major customer, pilots were laid off and half its fleet was put up for sale.

In 2005 it filed for bankruptcy protection. Then there were the problems that resulted in the union. Hawkair does not have a positive track record! It was under the same ownership/management as Bar XH Air, which had similar problems and has since ceased to exist as an independent entity, being taken over a year or so ago by Integra and the "management" changed.

What is so disturbing is that nothing seems to have changed at Hawkair. Here they are again apparently behaving in the same way: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76663

Did they learn nothing from this incident? Is the company "culture" a problem?

[sluggo]

Hawkair does not have a positive track record! It was under the same ownership/management as Bar XH Air, which had similar problems and has since ceased to exist as an independent entity, being taken over a year or so ago by Integra and the "management" changed.

What is so disturbing is that nothing seems to have changed at Hawkair. Here they are again apparently behaving in the same way: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76663

Did they learn nothing from this incident? Is the company "culture" a problem?

One is left wondering what your intentions are digging up an old thread like this?? I no longer work there but I still feel it's a little low to be doing this. There's no relation between the two threads.

[Galaxy]

I too wonder why you would bring up such an old thread? It's too bad about Hawkair not being able to make a go of things. It's a tough business. Safety is paramount in our business and even more so scrutinized under the microscope when you bring big oil into the picture. You f&*% up with them and you will feel the repercussions. It's too early to say what happened with First Air but I'm guessing they won't be seen for a while in the oil patch either. Very sad.

On a side note, getting back to the meat of the thread....TCAS does not work if the transponder is not on. I'm GUESSING the aircraft on the ground backtracking to the ramp did not have their transponder on.