Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

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Brick Head
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Brick Head »

c170b53

Wow,

Is the first letter accurate for facts. That is not a challenge, just asking specifically about the Oct. 16 2007 date. Is this statement correct? If someone transfers to Aveos tomorrow, AC is only responsible for the deficit as of Oct 16 2007? Any excess deficit beyond that date is the responsibility of Aveos even though the transfer takes place tomorrow? Did I read that correctly?

Yes I do realize Aveos missed a debt payment in January. That Aveos is itself is presently restructuring. That restructuring is touch and go according to the recent audit. I realize ACE hived out ACTS, gave it a lucrative contract with AC and then sold 73% to KKR and Sageview at an inflated price. Almost totally leveraged. Today Aveos is not profitable even with the lucrative contract. Aveos is on the verge of failing. AC can't afford the high priced heavy maintenance costs nor afford to buy Aveos back with all its debt.

But hey ACE shareholders made north of 700m on the sale.

Sorry man I just shake my head at the mess these guys have made. And now it appears quite obvious that the gov'ts intervention is for their own agenda. That being simply, AC keeps moving people. The path of least resistance, or shall I say the easiest manipulation, to that goal, is through you and I. That is their planed route.

As for the letter from a pilot. Point 2 is not accurate. It has been dealt with internally.

Good luck

Take a look at the lobbying. The unions can hardly get any ear time and when they do it is almost never with the right people. Check out April 28, 2009. If you don't recognize Ted Menzies google it. You'll see what I mean.

In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
781997-15009-5
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2008-12-31 to present



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Activity Description


Designated Public Office Holders

2009-05-20
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-108677


Ben Hamilton
Director, Issues Management



2009-05-12
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-108676


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities

2009-05-12
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-108675


Rob Wright
Deputy Minister


2009-04-30
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104374


Stockwell Day
Minister of International Trade







2009-04-28
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104354


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities

Jim Flaherty
Minister of Finance

Ted Menzies
MP







2009-04-28
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104335


Christian Paradis
Minister of Public Works and Government Services







2009-04-22
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104334


Louis Ranger
Deputy Minister







2009-04-20
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104324


Kevin Lynch
Clerk of the Privy Council & Secretary to the Cabinet







2009-04-20
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104322


Derek Vanstone
Chief of Staff







2009-04-13
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104317


Ben Hamilton
Director, Issues Management







2009-04-06
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104306


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2009-04-06
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-104315


Louis Ranger
Deputy Minister







2009-03-24
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-99544


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2009-03-20
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-99542


Louis Ranger
Deputy Minister







2009-03-20
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-101380


Kristine Burr
Assistant Deputy Minister







2009-03-11
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-101347


Peter Van Loan
Minister of Public Safety Canada







2009-03-11
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-101335


Derek Vanstone
Chief of Staff

Dan Mader
Senior Policy Advisor

Chris Froggatt
Chief of Staff







2009-03-10
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-99707


Rob Wright
Deputy Minister







2009-03-06
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-99539


Jim Flaherty
Minister of Finance







2009-02-23
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-98042


JOHN BAIRD
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT, INFRASTRUCTURE & COMMUNITIES







2009-02-16
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-99537


Louis Ranger
Deputy Minister







2009-02-13
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-98254


Dan Mader
Director of Policy







2009-02-06
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-98043


DAN MADER
SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR







2009-02-05
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-98041


JOHN BAIRD
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT, INFRASTRUCTURE & COMMUNITIES







2009-01-21
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-93810


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2009-01-08
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-93806


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2008-12-15
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-90175


Derek Vanstone
Chief of Staff







2008-12-15
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-90171


Mark Cameron
Senior Policy Advisor and Director of Strategic Initiatives







2008-12-15
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-90174


Chris Froggatt
Chief of Staff







2008-12-12
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-92989


Andrew House
Director of Policy







2008-12-09
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-90160


Rob Wright
Deputy Minister of Finance







2008-12-09
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-90167


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2008-11-27
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-87415


Tony Clement
Minister of Industry







2008-11-12
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-87434


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities







2008-11-11
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-87394


John Baird
Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities

Louis Ranger
Deputy Minister







2008-09-25
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-88217


Marc Gregoire
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety & Security







2008-07-24
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-77536


Joel Bernard
Senior Policy Advisor







2008-07-21
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-77535


Kristine Burr
ADM







2008-07-21
In-house Corporation: Air Canada
Responsible Officer: Montie Brewer
Communication number:15009-77533


Andrea Kent
Senior Policy Advisor
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roger.roger
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by roger.roger »

2R wrote:
Liquidation might be the best option for the taxpayers.
As it would be the quickest and cleanest way of getting rid of all the deadwood ,and deadwood practices.

The quickest, true. But just a few things to consider.
-26,000 jobs at AC gone
-hundreds, maybe thousands of jobs at CARA gone
-job losses at NavCanada
-job losses at Hotels, restaurants, taxi and limo companies, travel agencies, fuel services companies, deice companies, airport administration and maintenance jobs- gone. You, yes you 2R will probably pay more taxes to support all the EI benefits for all those people on top of the already heavy burden of EI produced by other industries.
Now let's bring in the replacement company. Let's see there's um, oh um, no, no. Well look, I'm sure someone will start a new company that can take over the routes and services. It might take a while, well maybe a long time, but heck, let's keep in mind what's best for the taxpayers.
2R wrote:Liquidation might be the best option for the taxpayers.
As it would be the quickest and cleanest way of getting rid of all the deadwood ,and deadwood practices.
LOL.....but your a private company and the gov't shouldn't @#$! with how you operate.

I just hope you've never made fun of anyone who bought a PPC/lived with their parents/or whined about the ontario gov't supplementing the cost of flight training through their college systems...........because your about to cost me a whole lot more
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Last edited by roger.roger on Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think that if you stick to the dotted lines when making the folds your might have some aviation success.
roger.roger
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by roger.roger »

Now let's bring in the replacement company. Let's see there's um, oh um, no, no. Well look, I'm sure someone will start a new company that can take over the routes and services. It might take a while, well maybe a long time, but heck, let's keep in mind what's best for the taxpayers.
WS hiring what remains of AC (limited widebody fleet) for CPA till they get up to speed..............LOL you to could be an owner

where does A/C fly that no one else flys?

I guess those J class tickets might just be available
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I think that if you stick to the dotted lines when making the folds your might have some aviation success.
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c170b53
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by c170b53 »

BH I think that broke is broke, regardless of the language for anyone in the pension plan there's no protection, the new agreement is just another illusion. But that's just my take on it, I'm hoping as usual that I'm wrong.
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tonysoprano
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by tonysoprano »

roger.
keep dreaming.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by teacher »

I love how mainline employees like to blame the CPA with Jazz for mainline's problems. The LAST thing you guys should be worried about is Jazz. Jazz works to support mainline and feed it with passengers as well as fly routes that are NOT profitable for mainline to fly. It's simple, if AC could make money on it they would be flying it. This is seen by the many routes that get "taken back" by mainline when the loads improve. It's all good to "take back your flying" but to do it at a loss is just stupid. Unless you wanna take another pay cut to make those smaller routes profitable.

You guys are funny, scope has nothing to do with the health of AC and everything to do with protectionism and ego.

From experience I can tell you that the majority of Jazz front line employees would love to have it go back to the way it was with the regionals flying the routes they want, selling their own tickets and allowing passengers to have the ability to purchase tickets that carry through and connect to other locations with AC. The CPA may be constant income for Jazz but it also severely limits the company to "feeding" mainline. This is very apparent with the countless money making routes that were dumped or not explored because they "didn't or don’t feed the hubs".

The income trust does pay out a large dividend and many analysts agree that it is too high and should be scaled back so Jazz can use that money for capital expenditures and in my opinion perhaps pass on the reduction in costs to AC. The truth is if the CPA was losing AC money they wouldn't have it. Jazz is an intrigal part of the AC system and even though I don't have the inside information to back up my claim I'm sure that if scraping or limiting the CPA was gonna save mainline it would have been done.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by rudder »

Given that over 80% of the Jazz CPA 'profits' are handed out to the trust unit holders and not reinvested in Jazz, I am certain that the Jazz employees could care less if the CPA margin was reduced significantly.
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Brick Head
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Brick Head »

rudder wrote:Given that over 80% of the Jazz CPA 'profits' are handed out to the trust unit holders and not reinvested in Jazz, I am certain that the Jazz employees could care less if the CPA margin was reduced significantly.
Exactly.

Teacher,

If it were only the Jazz CPA. Unfortunately us being pilots and all. We just focus on what we know. The whole business plan was to hive off Jazz, Aeroplan and ACTS. Set them up with very lucrative contracts. Then sell them at inflated prices due to those contracts. Most of the sales proceeds (that above the freeze value of these units set in CCAA) went to ACE shareholders.

c170b53,

Broke. Yup that sums it up. Did you get a look at the "draft pension review" letter that the gov't initially demanded as a condition of the loan to AC. It has now been removed from the TA due back lash. Go find it. The gov't has played their hand. Read the scope and direction of the letter. The gov't doesn't think you deserve a pension if the competition doesn't have one. It was why I posted the above lobbying and why I pointed out April 28/09.

They just don't want to insight anything before we sign.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by teacher »

I know "Brick Head".

It's sad that Corporate Canada and those abroad made loads of money at our (and especially AC mianline's) expense however it doesn't change the fact that although a good deal for Jazz, the CPA is not what is broken at AC. I agree that mainline pays a lot for our service and that the dividend should be reduced and the savings passed on to AC. I'm well aware of how this little money laundering schem works, it's sad really I can only hope that one day we'll be run like an airline and not an excercise in accounting.
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Brick Head
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Brick Head »

Teacher,

I have said over and over again this is not Jazz's fault. It was the architects fault. Yes I agree though too many Ac pilots only focus on the Jazz CPA.

The guys I feel the worst for are the guys at Aveos. At least Jazz and Aeroplan are successful under the present arrangement. AC employees at least have the fact that they are employees of the core business. The 10,000 plus ACTS employees got transfered to an abysmal failure.

By the way our advisor's are firm on their belief that AC's chances of avoiding CCAA part 2 are slim to none. * This is based on their assertion that AC needs whole sale restructuring to survive, but getting everyone to the table, and coming to agreement outside of CCAA, is historically unlikely given the amount of stakeholders.

The likely outcome of this pension moratorium is therefor likely only time. Time to try and pound providers. If that doesn't work. Time to prepare for CCAA.

*One Cavet to the above. That assessment was made on AC employees taking cost neutral collective agreements. I suspect that is not really going to be the case moving forward WRT pension.
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c170b53
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by c170b53 »

BH I read the evidence from that meeting but didn't see the reference to the draft unless of course it was right in front of me. Could you pinpoint its location please?
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Brick Head »

c170b53,

If you have a copy of the original TA it should be in there. We got word on July 2nd that the letter had been removed from the TA on approval from the gov't and AC. I just went back to look at the electronic version on our website. The letter is now removed from the TA. I suggest if you want to see it and can't find it ask the union.

I'll paraphrase it for you though.

-The letter was only a draft
-The letter committed the parties (Unions/AC)to a pension review
-The object of the review was to ensure AC never needed to return for regulatory pension exemptions
-The review was a condition by the department of finance (Flarity) as a condition of the loan to AC
-The review was to be chaired by Farley.
-The subject matter of the review was very broad based.
-The review was to ascertain viability, sustainability of the plans.
-The review was to look into how the pensions affect AC competitiveness.
-The review was to compare AC pensions to its competition.

With all that said. Yes it is fairly vague. It doesn't use the word arbitration.

However all of our TA's also have a section that basically states. Any conflicts arising from the interpretation of the TA will be arbitrated by Farley.

Anyway their was a lot of back lash over this thing. At our meeting the pension chair said that they had been informed by the gov't that this "pension review" was going to happen anyway and that it was an extension of the public consultation process on the regulation of private pension plans that fall under Ottawa's jurisdiction chaired by Ted Menzies.

On July 2nd we were notified it had been removed from the TA.

I'll leave it to you to decide what the gov't is thinking.

Find the letter. Read it. Look at all that lobbying. Particularly Apr. 28, 2009.
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Adisonn
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Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Adisonn »

It is the world's tenth-largest passenger airline by number of destinations, and the airline is a founding member of Star Alliance, an alliance of 28 member airlines formed in 1997.
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Re: Air Canada asks Ottawa for 200 Million.....

Post by Disco Stu »

Why did you resurrect a 3 year old thread just to say that???
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