Thank you AirCanada

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proper
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Thank you AirCanada

Post by proper »

I would like to take this time to thank our brothers at Air Canada for another excellent job creating harmony between the Jazz and Air Canada pilot group. Thank you Air Canada for trying to stop our 15 X Q400 acquisition and thank you for grieving our new contract with Thomas cook and of course flying the 757. I have been at Jazz for 4 years and with all the bad blood in the past I really went to work the past few years with an unbiased mind. I say hello, some don't answer.. that's ok I don't live with that individual. I respect the past but as a green horn to the airline world I look to the future as we are all collegues.

Yesterday morning I finally made up my mind as I read a memo from our Union ALPA stating as mentioned above.

And well... I am speechless. I see that we are not a team and we are not collegues of the same industry. I respect my fellow pilot and want them to do well, be employed and make a fine life with their family. Air Canada wants Jazz, broken, peniless and depressed. Different industries.
We should welcome the US regional model into our canadian skies dragging the bar even lower... and thank our mainline group for it.

This is addressed not to the individual Air Canada Pilot but to the ACPA group and those who are tuly represented by them.
You have lost another ally in this business.

I know this will spiral into a huge debate which is not my intention at all. I just wanted to share an honest opinion.


-Proper
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teacher
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by teacher »

+1

Sadly, if ACPA was looking for support during their 2011 negots after this I highly doubt they'll get it.
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HavaJava
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by HavaJava »

Care to post your name so we can make sure you never have to go through the disgrace of becoming a member of ACPA?
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tailgunner
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by tailgunner »

Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!
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aviator2010
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by aviator2010 »

LOL.......you guys are funny.
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Panama Jack wrote:I'm afraid I will have to agree with aviator2010

teacher
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by teacher »

Just because you do your neighbour a favour doesn't mean you have the right to burn down his garage.
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genetic jack hammer
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by genetic jack hammer »

teacher wrote:+1

Sadly, if ACPA was looking for support during their 2011 negots after this I highly doubt they'll get it.
+1500
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mattedfred
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by mattedfred »

tailgunner wrote:Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!
maybe CARA should have negotiated C2 when they entered into a commercial agreement with AC

Jazz: Independent when the argument suits AC (i.e. C2) yet the same company when it suits AC (i.e. TC flying)
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Dark Helmet
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by Dark Helmet »

Fellas,

I understnad you have reasons for filling those grievances. However, I have to ask. When does bureaucracy and contempt end and common sense begin.

For the last 5 years, I have been hearing from you AC folks how Jazz is nothing more than a separate company and just another service provider (and an expensive one at that). Did it occur to you that we were listening.

You have 2 grievances that will affect the WAWCON and careers of the Jazz pilots. Grievances that may not be won and here is why.

TC 757 Flying: TC has no relationship with AC. TC flying does not belong to AC therefore scope or the SJA does not apply. ACPA cannot dictacte what another company flies unless the flying is owned by AC. The SJA is kinda like LOU 18, only applies to a company that is wholy owned by AC. This would be like telling WJ they can only operate the 737 classic and not the NG.

Jazz Q400: You keep telling us that Jazz is too expensive. This is a fleet renewal program in which we are replacing Jets with more efficient Turboprops. This will save Jazz money which in turn will benefit AC. You feel that you are entitled to fly these Turboprops instead because of the # of seats these A/c are certified to hold? Yet you have allowed AC to use another company to operate Q400's on your behalf. :smt021

You have started negotiations with your employer with finite resources and a divided group. Why are you not using your resources to improve your WAWCON rather then to capture regional flying that AC is not set up to do? How many major mainline carriers operate the CRJ, E-175, and the Q400? And why waste resouces to prevent Jazz from expanding when you know there may not be a leg to stand on?

When JALPA was in negotiations, we went after better WAWCON and strategies to diversify the revenue base at Jazz outside the CPA. Never did we attempt to capture more flying from AC. ACPA has kicked off their negotiations campaign by antagonizing the Jazz pilot group by filing 2 grievances against Jazz's fleet renewal and expansion plans.

Do you think this is prudent considering you may need our support? Just because you sent us a letter of support (an arrogant and condescending one at that) during our negots does not mean that we will support you in return. Actions do speak louder than words.

Personally I would like to and want to support you during your negots. I hate to say this but your recent actions has caused me to take a step back and re-evaluate. the irony is that you often talk about solidarity but you are forstering the opposite.

For those of you who are saying that we are lucky to have what we have with AC need to remenber that a lot of Jazz pilots did at one time worked for AC. these pilots did contributed to AC's bottom line when Jazz was wholly owned. Not to mention that many rely on Jazz and the Jazz jumpseat to get to work.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, my apologies if I did that
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proper
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by proper »

... wow...
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countryhick
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by countryhick »

Care to post your name so we can make sure you never have to go through the disgrace of becoming a member of ACPA

No need, I turned down the job offer 5 years ago.
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proper
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by proper »

the great part about discussions like this with ACPA is you just listen and let them do all the talking to the point where a four year old can tell right from wrong. Many thanks for your posts guys. Keep em coming :)
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proper
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by proper »

Hey me too said no 3 years ago hahaha ciao ciao
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KAG
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by KAG »

aviator2010 wrote:LOL.......you guys are funny.
It's sad really. These guys were probibly drinking buddies in flight school, now there hurling insults in their respective flight decks.
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Say Altitude
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by Say Altitude »

The "marriage"/good relationship between ACPA and ALPA ended when the Jazz MEC went after the Embraer. Period. Say what you want but maybe look in the mirror first....
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by Lateralus »

Say Altitude wrote:The "marriage"/good relationship between ACPA and ALPA ended when the Jazz MEC went after the Embraer. Period. Say what you want but maybe look in the mirror first....
Ok I wasn't around at Jazz when this took place. When did this happen? And what were the details, cause it has never been explained to me.
Thanks
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yycflyguy
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by yycflyguy »

Proper et al.

How soon it is forgotten the words of encouragement here and in the terminal while ALPA was in contract negotiations last year. You had our support to get a better contract. You got it. We applauded you. Now you say that based on a memo (biased?probably) you will go out of your way to blame mainline for the entire industry degradation and then wonder why there is animosity between the two groups. You are perpetuating the animosity.

No good deed goes unpunished.
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lawndart
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by lawndart »

Proper:

ACPA has a letter that says that all aircraft with a seating capacity of 76-110 seats will be flown by pilots on the ACPA seniority list. I am sure that ALPA has a similar clause to keep Georgian, CMA etc. from flying -8s. When the Q400 was announced (with a seating capacity of 80), it certainly required clarification.

In terms of ACPA spearheading a drive to the bottom, I would encourage you to look at what the organization has done to prevent and reverse that direction. Lobbying re: Emirates/Etihad, seed money for the College of pilots, lobbying for changes to duty and fatigue rules, and lobbying to prevent Canadian companies from sourcing foreign pilots for Canadian work come to mind.
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northernpilot
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by northernpilot »

HavaJava wrote:Care to post your name so we can make sure you never have to go through the disgrace of becoming a member of ACPA?
ar·ro·gance (r-gns)
n.
The state or quality of being arrogant; overbearing pride.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by yycflyguy »

In terms of ACPA spearheading a drive to the bottom, I would encourage you to look at what the organization has done to prevent and reverse that direction. Lobbying re: Emirates/Etihad, seed money for the College of pilots, lobbying for changes to duty and fatigue rules, and lobbying to prevent Canadian companies from sourcing foreign pilots for Canadian work come to mind.
Nicely said Lawndart.... deaf ears methinks. No good deed goes unpunished.
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teacher
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by teacher »

That letter of support contained a nice little line reminding Jazz that they have a place and to stay in it, nice. As for the taking jets well if I remember correctly regional jets were "stolen" from the regionals first.

Ever stop to think that ACE was actually trying to unload the EMBs and not Jazz going after them? I also doubt that a Jazz pilot was sitting at the CCAA table saying "we'll fly those". Wasn't it Milton that said he'd prefer if AC dumped the the majority of domestic flying to focus on international? Once again, look inwards before pointing fingures.

You can't grieve the Q400 flying at Jazz, offer it to another company, complain about Jazz flying jets but also attempt to prevent us from replacing them with turboprops and also bitch how we're too expensive but try to stop us from flying more efficient aircraft all in the same breath :smt017 . Well you can, it's just retarded.
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arctic navigator
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by arctic navigator »

ACPA, ALPA, and every other union out there is working for one thing and one thing only... TO MAKE MONEY FOR THE UNION!!!!! The union leadership couldn't give a rats a$$ about the company their group works for, or the employees them selves for that matter, other than to make sure the employees earn as much money as possible to ensure the UNION DUES are maximized...
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by Dark Helmet »

yycflyguy wrote:Proper et al.

How soon it is forgotten the words of encouragement here and in the terminal while ALPA was in contract negotiations last year. You had our support to get a better contract. You got it. We applauded you. Now you say that based on a memo (biased?probably) you will go out of your way to blame mainline for the entire industry degradation and then wonder why there is animosity between the two groups. You are perpetuating the animosity.

No good deed goes unpunished.
yycflyguy,

Your support did not go unoticed, The words of encouragement came from individuals, I believe them to be sincere but I do not think it reflects on the groups as a whole. Having said that, it is appreciated it none the less.

The Jazz MEC received several letters of support from various pilot groups, including ACPA. All of the letters were sincere and supportive, except ACPA's.

Like I said, Action speak louder than words. Words of encouragement and letters of support means nothing if you are going to stab us in the back and steal from our plates later on

There has been some good points made, Jazz needs to change the way they do business and treat their customers.

Having said that, so far ACPA has been part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Nevertheless, good luck with your negotiations.
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Dark Helmet
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by Dark Helmet »

ACPA has a letter that says that all aircraft with a seating capacity of 76-110 seats will be flown by pilots on the ACPA seniority list. I am sure that ALPA has a similar clause to keep Georgian, CMA etc. from flying -8s. When the Q400 was announced (with a seating capacity of 80), it certainly required clarification.
Nope, the fact that Skyregional is flying out of YTZ is proof of that.
In terms of ACPA spearheading a drive to the bottom, I would encourage you to look at what the organization has done to prevent and reverse that direction. Lobbying re: Emirates/Etihad, seed money for the College of pilots, lobbying for changes to duty and fatigue rules, and lobbying to prevent Canadian companies from sourcing foreign pilots for Canadian work come to mind.
ALPA is involved in many of those things as well.
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derk99
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Re: Thank you AirCanada

Post by derk99 »

tailgunner wrote:Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!
Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.
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