Foreign pilots : Creating Database of qualified Canadians

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This message is cross posted on http://www.cocap.ca

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As you know, certain airlines put bogus ads on-line and in the newspapers asking for pilots, with the sole intent of using them to apply for LMOs to HRSDC, in order to hire foreign pilots instead of Canadians. When they apply for the LMO, they also inform HRSDC that they received no qualified Canadian applicants and on that basis request permission to hire foreigners instead. HRSDC has no way of verifying the exactitude of that statement other than checking for the number of pilots who are collecting EI, and even then, they know nothing of the actual resumes received and rejected or ignored by the companies listing the jobs.

They know nothing about the pilots who are working but who are under-employed.
They know nothing about Canadian pilots working overseas but who want to come home.

Our goal is to change that.

Anyone who :
Is Canadian, or has landed Immigrant Status in Canada
Has at least 3000 hours of flight
Has flown a medium sized jet of any type
and who would would be interested in flying for Canjet or Sunwing this winter, even on a six month contractual basis

We ask that you send your resumes to these two companies right away.

Sunwing accepts resumes at hr@sunwing.ca

Canjet has an on-line system but has openings for pilots in Toronto and Vancouver

http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH01/ats/career ... 3&rid=1844

http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH01/ats/career ... 3&rid=1845


Once you have applied at these companies, we ask that you also send a copy of your Resume to

noforeignpilots@gmail.com

We are creating a database of pilots experienced and qualified enough to work at these two companies. In a few days, we will write to HRSDC and submit to them the whole lot of Resumes with a letter asking them why these Canadian pilots were not hired by these companies.

Although these two companies do often hire low time pilots with only light turboprop time as F/Os on the 737NG, the resumes we plan on submitting as evidence to HRSDC are of pilots with at least 3000 hours with time on medium jets so these employers cannot just simply blow them away by claiming they are too low time and not experienced enough. This does not mean that you cannot apply to these companies, on the contrary, please do, but for the resume database we are building, we will only insert the resumes of pilots meeting the requirements listed above.

We intend to send the letter and the resumes to HRSDC at the end of THIS month, so please no delay in sending us your resumes. We do not need cover letters. Just a resume in Word or PDF is fine. When naming your file, please use your name as file name (GillesHudicourt.pdf for example).

I am aware that I am asking you to send a lot of personal information here and many may be reluctant to do so. This is why I have been doing all of this under my real name. I am a real person. I am listed in the phone book in Montreal, with address, phone number etc. I am openly an Air Transat A-330 Captain, member of ALPA. My union knows I do this. My company knows I do this. Everyone involved in Government knows I do this. These resumes will only be sent to HRSDC and CIC and the whole lot will be discarded once this exercise is over.

We have also started a closed and secret Facebook group called "We are against foreign pilots working in Canada". It was created a few days ago and we already have over 1000 members. Please join if someone invites you, but an administrator who can vouch for you has to admit you. We are looking for pilots from different companies to add to the groups as administrators, for we obviously do not know everyone.

The goal of this group is to stop the practice of using a lack of Type Rating as an excuse to hire foreigners instead of Canadians, and also to promote the 1:1 ration when foreign pilots are admitted into Canada within a CIC approved reciprocity agreement with a foreign airline.

If you would like to be a group administrator to screen applicants from your company or region, send an email with your info and facebook name to noforeignpilots@gmail.com

Thank you.

Gilles Hudicourt

[Gilles Hudicourt]

We have only 13 Resumes as I write these words. They Sunwing and Canjet are about to ask work permits for at least 150 foreign pilots if not more. We need resumes of qualified and experienced pilots please to make our point.

[Bede]

Gilles,

I respect what you're trying to do, but could it be that there just aren't that many unemployed jet drivers out there? I'm sure there's more than 13, but 150 decent guys with jet time looking for work is probably pushing it.

[fivemoreminutes]

+1

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

I respect what you're trying to do, but could it be that there just aren't that many unemployed jet drivers out there? I'm sure there's more than 13, but 150 decent guys with jet time looking for work is probably pushing it.

I agree 100 percent with you, but I don't need 150. All pilots with the required experience who want to work for Sunwing and Canjet can and should apply.

The database we're building is just to demonstrate to HRSDC that there are experienced Canadian jet pilots out there that are being overlooked by these companies in favor of foreign pilots. HRSDC has been giving these companies LMOs because they thought a lack of 737NG type rating was a big deal that made an experienced jet pilot un-qualified to work at Sunwing and Canjet. I wrote to just about every HRSDC office that issues LMOs to educate them about type ratings.

Now we need to demonstrate that they overlooked 50 Canadian jet pilots to favor foreigners. If we succeed, they will be denied all LMOs and all the positions will be filled by Canadians..... I do not want to have to explain to HRSDC that a pilot with 2500 hours in the left seat of a Dash 8 is qualified to take a right seat in a 737NG. I don't want Canjet or Sunwing to be able to raise any "ifs" or "buts" about the resumes I will send to HRSDC.

But I'm open to suggestions. Should we submit resumes of people with medium turboprop time. ? Will it have the same impact ?

I have 15 Resumes so far, 3 of which are type rated on the 737NG. I expect at least another 2 737NG rated Resumes soon.

Gilles

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I now have 22 Resumes, 5 of them with B-737NG ratings. Keep them coming please and spread the word. I have the guns but those Resumes are my ammunition.

Gilles

[Bede]

See Gilles, part of me just wants to apply so I can turn them down. Why not encourage all your AT friends to do the same? They'd have a much more difficult time defending themselves with 1000 or so qualified applicants who do not want to work there.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

See Gilles, part of me just wants to apply so I can turn them down. Why not encourage all your AT friends to do the same? They'd have a much more difficult time defending themselves with 1000 or so qualified applicants who do not want to work there.

Every single one of the 57 pilots who got laid off from AT is applying at Canjet and Sunwing and I will have all of their Resumes. I now have 24 CV, 5 of them with 737NG ratings. In the database, I will only include legitimate applicants though, because they must be credible when HRDSC and Canjet and Sunwing begin to look at them together to determine why foreigners should be hired instead.........

[whipline]

I think you've officially hit defcom Desperate Gilles. Are you now the self appointed hiring comittee for both Sunwing and Canjet? I must have missed the memo. What if these companies don't like your minimums? What if they've already interviewed them and said no. What if these pilots are already working and not willing to quit a full time job for a 6 month contract with unemployment at the finish line? What if they've already worked at either Sunwing or Canjet and they didn't want them back? You say you don't need a type rating, the companies say they do. How many pilots do you employ Gilles? Your welcome to hire the non type rated at Gilles airways. Make sure you hire some english only pilots as well

Bede if you'd like to apply send me a PM with your resume and a letter of resignation from Westjet and I'll promise you an interview. PS you'll be 100% out of work in April. I triple dog double dare ya

[tbaylx]

I think you've officially hit defcom Desperate Gilles. Are you now the self appointed hiring comittee for both Sunwing and Canjet? I must have missed the memo. What if these companies don't like your minimums? What if they've already interviewed them and said no. What if these pilots are already working and not willing to quit a full time job for a 6 month contract with unemployment at the finish line? What if they've already worked at either Sunwing or Canjet and they didn't want them back? You say you don't need a type rating, the companies say they do. How many pilots do you employ Gilles? Your welcome to hire the non type rated at Gilles airways. Make sure you hire some english only pilots as well

Bede if you'd like to apply send me a PM with your resume and a letter of resignation from Westjet and I'll promise you an interview. PS you'll be 100% out of work in April. I triple dog double dare ya

Call it what you want Whipline, Gill is fighting the good fight. If enough canadian pilots were like him we wouldn't have these issues. There are zero reasons why we should have unemployed canadian pilots in this country when there are non citizens working here. Sunwing and Canjet can ask for whatever they like, but they should not be able to hire foreign pilots. If they can't find canadian pilots with type ratings, then they are stuck doing what every other airline has to do and provide them. If they are a decent company then they should get at least some of the people back year after year. As a matter of fact if they would commit to hiring the same people back, it wouldn't be a bad job at all flying floats in the summer and the jet in the winter when you get laid off.

There have been other good suggestions of a job sharing program between Transat and Canjet for example. The simple issue is that Sunwing and Canjet find it more convenient to hire foreigners than come up with innovative ideas to keep canadians employed because the current government lets them.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think you've officially hit defcom Desperate Gilles. Are you now the self appointed hiring comittee for both Sunwing and Canjet? I must have missed the memo. What if these companies don't like your minimums? What if they've already interviewed them and said no. What if these pilots are already working and not willing to quit a full time job for a 6 month contract with unemployment at the finish line? What if they've already worked at either Sunwing or Canjet and they didn't want them back? You say you don't need a type rating, the companies say they do. How many pilots do you employ Gilles? Your welcome to hire the non type rated at Gilles airways. Make sure you hire some english only pilots as well

Bede if you'd like to apply send me a PM with your resume and a letter of resignation from Westjet and I'll promise you an interview. PS you'll be 100% out of work in April. I triple dog double dare ya

You want Bede to quit his job first and in exchange you promise him just an interview ? Is that how you run things where you work ? The problems are more serious than I thought.

Seriously, there is a great misunderstanding here. You've got me all wrong. I do not claim to tell your company, or any company for that matter, whom they should hire or not hire. All companies are free to hire whom they want, high time, low time, experienced, un-experienced, rated, un-rated. I don't really give a hoot.

AS LONG AS THEY ARE HIRING CANADIANS OR LANDED IMMIGRANTS.

But for those companies bent on publishing bogus recruitment ads and making up questionable excuses to convince the Canadian Government that they were unable to find qualified pilots in Canada and for said lack of qualified Canadians, seek permission to hire foreigners in lieu of Canadians (which is what an LMO is), I am building a parallel database of resumes of qualified pilots. You tell the government no one applied. I will show the government who, in fact applied. I am going to sit on that database until I find out that either Sunwing or Canjet told the government that they were unable to find qualified Canadians to fill their openings. At that point and only then, will I write to the appropriate HRSDC office and tell them that I have a group of qualified pilots that have applied to Canjet and/or Sunwing and that these companies may have overlooked.

Hire Canadians, any Canadians, I don't care, and I will just delete the whole file.

Gilles Hudicourt

[trey kule]

Are you now the self appointed hiring comittee for both Sunwing and Canjet? I must have missed the memo

My thoughts exactly, and I expect, it will be the opinion of the good folks in the government to..Some self appointed person trying to decide who his competition should or should not hire...Amazing bit of arrogance. Oh wait,,,this is all about the good fight isn.t it...such selflessness.

Or maybe I am all wrong and you dont work for a direct competitor!!!

It is of such importance to the whole community that it has come to begging for more resumes, in an effort to push up the total...there is a message there. Temporary winter jobs are not a big deal to the properly qualified Canadian pilots...well , except for maybe those who got laid off at SunWings competition.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Are you now the self appointed hiring comittee for both Sunwing and Canjet? I must have missed the memo

My thoughts exactly, and I expect, it will be the opinion of the good folks in the government to..Some self appointed person trying to decide who his competition should or should not hire...Amazing bit of arrogance. Oh wait,,,this is all about the good fight isn.t it...such selflessness.

Or maybe I am all wrong and you dont work for a direct competitor.

You don't seem to know what arrogance is my dear friend.

A Canadian airline telling the government that there are no qualified Canadians to fly its 737s and that they need to import European pilots to fly them. That's arrogance.

A Canadian airline that hires Europeans because it in fact belongs to German TUI and that those European pilots it wants to hire work for airlines in Europe that belong to TUI as well, so it makes up silly excuses about lack of type ratings in Canada, not because it really thinks that Canadians are not qualified, but because it needs to help TUI-owned airlines in Europe cover the expense of it's idle 737 pilots in winter. That is arrogance.

A Canadian airline that tells the government that my 57 laid off Canadian colleagues, who've all been flying A-310s and A-330s, and in certain cases other jets as well, including 737NGs, are not qualified to fly for them. That is arrogance.

An airlines that hires foreign pilots who pay no taxes in Canada while leaving qualified unemployed Canadians on EI at the expense of taxpayers and all this to save money (for itself and for German TUI). That is arrogance.

I wrote it here before and I will write it again now. Hire anyone you like, but hire locally. No Germans. No British. No Belgians. No Czech. Hire Canadians.

(PS except of course under an approved reciprocity agreement that all parties abides by. But we all know how that played out when Sunwing was given such an opportunity)

[trey kule]

It seems to me that a company should have the privelege of determining what a qualified candidate is for their operation, as well as who is a suitable qualified candidate. If someone is Canadian and they
Meet both criteria and want a seasonal position they should be hired.
But no self appointed third party should be making it. Particularly one who works for a direct competitor. And being Canadian does not automatically trump any other qualifications or make an applicant more suitable

Anyway, best of luck on your quest to force companies to hire who you think they should.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It seems to me that a company should have the privelege of determining what a qualified candidate is for their operation, as well as who is a suitable qualified candidate. If someone is Canadian and they
Meet both criteria and want a seasonal position they should be hired.
But no self appointed third party should be making it. Particularly one who works for a direct competitor. And being Canadian does not automatically trump any other qualifications or make an applicant more suitable

Anyway, best of luck on your quest to force companies to hire who you think they should.

Don't you see that you have 2 sets of hiring requirements inside the same company ?

When you need year round pilots, you hire non rated pilots, even low time, little experience pilots from Canada. The vast majority of your Canadian pilots were not rated on the 737NG when they were hired at Sunwing or Canjet.

But when you need seasonal pilots for the winter, you suddenly change your requirements to high time type-rated pilots and suddenly non-rated Canadian pilots, regardless or experience, become unqualified.

If you had the same hiring requirements year-round and could demonstrate to HRSDC that all or most Canadian pilots working for Sunwing had a 737NG type rating prior to being hired you would have a case, but sadly for Sunwing (and Canjet) you can't. This is a bogus requirement Sunwing and Canjet only insert in their hiring requirements for the specific purpose of justifying the hiring of foreigners to save money. They are not real requirements you have the rest of the time.

It's like if you hired high school graduates year-round and every time a candidate you did not want came to apply, you added in your education requirements a PHD in quantum physics, just to disqualify that person. You might get away with it a couple times but soon enough people would smarten up to the scheme and someone would come knocking at your door to tell you to straighten up your act or else..

You think the people at HRSDC are stupid ? Last year they didn't know what a type rating was and how it was being used to twist the system. This year they do.

[Legacy]

Gilles, pay no attention to what a few of these guys are saying. I think what you are doing is right. These couple of guys obviously work for sunwing or canjet and its in a pilots nature to always defend the company they work for even when they know what their company is doing is wrong. Its clear that you are not trying to tell the companies how to run their company. These guys just dont get it. Hey lets do what they think is right and hire ALL non canadians for every canadian job out there? That would solve all our problems! Keep up the good work Gilles.

[FICU]

Anyway, best of luck on your quest to force companies to hire who you think they should.

We, the majority, think Canjet and SunWing should hire Canadians... don't you?

[trey kule]

A fair enough question. But , in this instance the specifics are a bit more defining.
If one is looking for full time pilot, then they normally will provide the necessary training.
The qualifications then become what the company considers suitable for the job in terms of trainability,for lack of a better word., and, what they consider as suitable in terms of non flying attributes. In this instance I believe there are an ample supply of suitable and qualified Canadian pilots to fill the positions, and I think that is the way they are being hired.
But this issue is about temporary seasonal pilots. And it does not make sense, from a business prospective to train a pilot that is going to be laid off in six months, if there are qualified pilots that are suitable out there. Now qualified means having a type rating and being current. I dont think there are a sufficient number of Canadian pilots out there who have the rating, are current, and want a seasonal job. But there are foreign pilots. Makes sense to me.
And, if the market expands, and their business develops, then the opportunity for canadian pilots will be there for full time positions.
This type of hiring also has spin offs, in that all the support staff are 100% hired from Canada.

Because it has been posted that those who oppose this must work for the competition, I will put it right up front. I dont work in Canada and have no affilitation with any of the companies mentioned. Mr. Hudicourt, I believe, does. In fact, I think he works for a direct competitor of
SunWings. One that is not doing so well and had to layoff pilots. You can read into that what you will.
From my persepective it is simply a good business decision.
From others it seems to be all about protectionism without consideration for business profitability.
If by qualified, the company means having a type rating and being current, I simply dont think there is a large pool of Canadian pilots so the question is really moot. If by qualified you mean type rated on something similar and feeling entitlted because you are a Canadian without any consideration for the business, then we may have a difference of opinion.
I would really like to know how many Canadian pilots who are type rated, current, and want the job there are. Seems, even from the posts here, not a lot, so it is now a push...they need some 150 pilots I believe, and there simply are not that many in Canada available. Lots of King Air drivers, or laid off drivers from competitors that would take the job, I suppose, but it becomes a case of entitlement vs. good business practices..
Using the existing laws and regulations is constantly referred to in these threads as using a loophole.
It is not. They are playing by the rules. And the gist of this whole push is to change the rules to accomodate the wishes of some ..
When I read phoney ads posted in the employment section and unsubstantiated claims being made I have to wonder about the ethics of those who are promoting the hire Canadians position..A bit of the kettle and pot .
In any event, oposing views are always good. Gives those who think a chance to weigh both sides of the equation.
And yes, all things being equal, I think Canadians should be hired, or at the least in this particular situation, be given preference, all other things being equal.

[Bobby868]

Trey Kule,

That is a long winded response, let me summarize what you are saying.

1) If you’re a business and you can find a foreigner who will work for cheaper and is of a slightly better qualification then the company should be able to hire that person over a tax paying citizen of this country.

Now let me expand on that and see where it takes us.

2) This planet has approximately 7 billion people on it. That makes for very good odds that no matter what type of job you can think of in Canada: accountant, engineer, janitor, pilot, surgeon, CEO whatever ever. There is going to be someone, someplace in this world that can do the job for cheaper and yes even better.

3)Thus Trey Kule thinks it’s ok to replace ever job in Canada, including his own, with a foreigner.

I disagree. I think Canadian jobs should go to Canadian tax paying citizens so they can support their Canadian families and build their Canadian communities.

That’s not protectionism, that’s common sense and every other country in the world works that way.

If you’re in such a hurry to give away Canadian jobs maybe you should walk into your bosses office and, for the good of the shareholders, offer to give up your job to someone from India, China, Europe etc who will do it for cheaper and better. BTW don’t flatter yourself into thinking there is no one out there that would qualify, out of 7 billion people I’m sure your boss could find a couple who meet the criteria. And don't think for a minute that you company wouldn't do it if they thought they could get away with it. So thank your lucky stars there are laws in place to stop this and that there are people Gilles that are willing to step up and let the government know when a company is trying to sneak around the rules.

Let's get this straight, this isn't a married couple living in suburbs trying to get a nanny in from the Philipines, these are large corporate companies trying give Canadian pilot jobs away to non Canadians so the company can save paying for type ratings (a cost of doing business)

Give your head a shake son.

[JTF01]

Trey Kule,

That is a long winded response, let me summarize what you are saying.

1) If you’re a business and you can find a foreigner who will work for cheaper and is of a slightly better qualification then the company should be able to hire that person over a tax paying citizen of this country.

Now let me expand on that and see where it takes us.

2) This planet has approximately 7 billion people on it. That makes for very good odds that no matter what type of job you can think of in Canada: accountant, engineer, janitor, pilot, surgeon, CEO whatever ever. There is going to be someone, someplace in this world that can do the job for cheaper and yes even better.

3)Thus Trey Kule thinks it’s ok to replace ever job in Canada, including his own, with a foreigner.

I disagree. I think Canadian jobs should go to Canadian tax paying citizens so they can support their Canadian families and build their Canadian communities.

That’s not protectionism, that’s common sense and every other country in the world works that way.

If you’re in such a hurry to give away Canadian jobs maybe you should walk into your bosses office and, for the good of the shareholders, offer to give up your job to someone from India, China, Europe etc who will do it for cheaper and better. BTW don’t flatter yourself into thinking there is no one out there that would qualify, out of 7 billion people I’m sure your boss could find a couple who meet the criteria. And don't think for a minute that you company wouldn't do it if they thought they could get away with it. So thank your lucky stars there are laws in place to stop this and that there are people Gilles that are willing to step up and let the government know when a company is trying to sneak around the rules.

Let's get this straight, this isn't a married couple living in suburbs trying to get a nanny in from the Philipines, these are large corporate companies trying give Canadian pilot jobs away to non Canadians so the company can save paying for type ratings (a cost of doing business)

Give your head a shake son.

+1.

Well said. Trey Kule will never get it (until the day he is replaced by a third-country national working for $300/month).

Gilles - thanks for your AMAZING persistence through all.

JTF01