More foreign pilots on work permits elsewhere

[Gilles Hudicourt]

When Tobi Cohen wrote this article recently she indicated, based on statistics she had obtained from CIC, that 395 foreign pilots had been provided with temporary work permits last year. I should have paid closer attention. I knew about 180 to 200 of those were for Sunwing and another 30 to 40 were for Canjet but that still left close to 150 unaccounted for. I have since received three messages from 3 different people informing me about the whereabouts of these foreign pilots and they are not here flying Cessna 172s. Some of them hold substantial jobs. Why on Earth are Canadian employers overlooking Canadian pilots and asking CIC and HRSDC for permission to hire foreigners instead? Don't we have Canadians capable of holding a left seat in a 727, in a corporate jet or in a helicopter? Are type ratings beeing used as excuses to bypass Canadians in order to save the training money? Are Americans flying for less? This a practice that must be brought out in the open.

Let us be clear. This is not a witch hunt. This is not about foreigners who immigrated to Canada, obtained Canadian residence or citizenship. I am an immigrant myself.

What I am talking about here is Canadian employers who go and seek foreign pilots and obtain for them Canadian work permits in order to hire them instead of Canadians for whatever reason: to save money, to do an allied company a favour or for whatever reason. We have to put each and every case under the microscope and determine if there is justification for these foreigners to occupy those jobs instead of Canadians.

You know of a foreign pilot working on a temporary work permit sponsored by his employer? Write about it here.


http://www.canada.com/business/Pilots+s ... z24eh5L2MM

[nortont]

Probably some of the other permits your looking for, a few I'm sure have been issued to Americans flying N-reg planes and heli's in Canada on contracts..

[126.75]

I know at some flight schools around the country they try and get jobs for international students after they complete their CPL and instructor rating. The argument for is the ability to speak the language many of the students speak as native tongue. I've seen job ads posted specifically with someone in mind (Specific rating, hours, 2nd or 3rd language etc..) These people actually do pay income tax and many of them do become PRs or Citizens after who then do contribute to our society which makes it much easier to stomach vs Sunwing or Canjet as an example where the pilots return home after their "tour".

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Probably some of the other permits your looking for, a few I'm sure have been issued to Americans flying N-reg planes and heli's in Canada on contracts..

Foreign pilots who come to Canada as crew members on wet-lease contracts are exempt from work permits.

[Panama Jack]

This is starting to have the makeings of a witch hunt. A wave of anti-immigrant sentiment is starting to sweep the ranks of Canada's pilots.

Probably some of the other permits your looking for, a few I'm sure have been issued to Americans flying N-reg planes and heli's in Canada on contracts..

Check out the following for details on NAFTA and Specialty Air Services:

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 007_22.PDF

[Tibor]

An honest question, but maybe playing Devils advocate here, but do you have any numbers on how many Canadian pilots are flying in other countries? I'm willing to bet far more 400.

[jughead]

Just looking at the numbers and this seems to be happening quite a bit. Not that the employees all agree with it, but for the 3rd year our board of directors decided that it was more efficient to bring in about 20 to 30 temporary seasonal pilots for the winter to cover the demands of a contract that only lasts for 3 months. The contract requires a very large increase in flight utilization for a very short period.(utilization goes from 1 or 2 flights a week to almost 10 flights a day.) No additional aircraft are brought in and not sure what alternatives there would be for this type of ramp up for such a short period.

I wonder how these numbers would appear if you base it on a calendar year or over the past 12 months. Example: 20 to 30 in January/February and then a different 20 to 30 in December. (none over the Summer and Fall) Would this appear to be 40 to 60 in total for the year?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Check out the following for details on NAFTA and Specialty Air Services:

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 007_22.PDF

This is an agreement where companies that operate Specialty Air Service in any of the the 3 NAFTA countries can bid on contracts in any of the three countries or do work for them. I saw this summer, for example, some US registered Twin Otters in Quebec dropping skydivers. That falls within that NAFTA agreement you quoted. Survey work etc.

This does not allow for a Canadian company to hire Americans. Try finding a flying job in the US without a Green Card while claiming NAFTA privileges of a Canadian and see what they tell you. They'll send you packing home.

There are cases where foreigners are allowed to work in programs other than the ones I condemn. For example a foreigner who comes to Canada do do his flight training and does an instructor rating may be able to get a permit to instruct for a while to gain some instruction experience before going back home. The US has a similar program also.

But how does that explain a Canadian Cargo outfit that has Americans on work permits in the left seat of its 727s ? How does that explain Americans flying Canadian Corporate Aircraft ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

An honest question, but maybe playing Devils advocate here, but do you have any numbers on how many Canadian pilots are flying in other countries? I'm willing to bet far more 400.

I was told about 1000, but that is an estimate.

But they are not in the US, in Germany, or France, or in the UK or in Australia are they, unless they are dual citizens or residents of those countries and have bona fide licences in those countries. Those Canadians that are working overseas on employer-sponsored work permits and fly with foreign licence validations, such as the foreigners I am talking about here in Canada, fly in places such as Qatar, Dubai, China, India, Korea etc where there is a lack of local pilots work force.

A company came a few days ago to Montreal recruiting for Chinese Airlines that require hundred of foreign pilots.

And by they way, many of these pilots would gladly come come home if they were able to find decent work.

[Gino Under]

Panama Jack

Sorry. But, your recent postings haven't seemed quite up to their usual standard. At first I thought, no, it's me. I must have misread or misunderstood what you had to say about this issue.
At least those were my initial suspicions so I re-read some of your comments, not trusting what I thought you were saying. But I was right, you obviously don't support Canadian jobs for Canadians.

May I ask what you intend to do, if, and, or when you return to Canada?

Because if this present practice of handing Canadian jobs to foreigners continues you won't have much luck finding a flying job here. I'd also point out that no one operates the A320 anymore (except Air Canada).
Canair Cargo? Gone.
Canada 3000? Gone.
Skyservice? Gone.

You might want to re-think your stand on this issue and temper your stand on type ratings as to who should be paying for them.
I have no objection to the hiring of foreign pilots when the need to do so exists, but c'mon. Even Panama Jack knows there is no pilot shortage in Canada and only a fool thinks this situation is no different to Canadians being hired at Gulf Air, Emirates, or Qatar Airways.

And, BTW, this has SFA to do with any witch hunt and you know it. Besides, if Canadian pilots wanted a witch hunt, most Canadian pilots would not only know what closet to look in they'd also know in which houses to look.

Giggidy!

Gino Under

[Panama Jack]

Dear Gino Under,

My response was directed at nortont who, his comments suggested, did not seem familiar with the provisions available to Air Services under NAFTA. In reporting sightings of “N”-numbered airplanes, which you agree has nothing to do with this issue, it started to sound like a witch hunt.

I do respect what Gilles is trying to accomplish and his determination but I am not sure I agree with everything.

I like the ideas of jobs for Canadians, but more importantly, I believe in careers for Canadians. The key ingredient for a long-term career is a strong employer; and that requires a dose of economic reality. I don't believe that Sunwing and Canjet are spitefully going out of their way to hire Canadian pilots but I do believe they are looking for an economical, short-term solution to a short term problem/opportunity. If you or I were running an airline with the goal of running it as a profitable and on-going concern, we would be doing something similar and I would like to suggest that the permanent pilots at Sunwing and Canjet have more secure positions and a better long-term career outlook because of it.

Just look at the poster who, a few weeks ago, was looking for a guy with an airplane and a Commercial license who could do some flying for his lodge next summer. He evidently didn't want to start his own air service (he knew there wasn't enough demand) and he didn't want to go the usual route of phoning up the expensive guys in the Yellow Pages. There is one difference here. What Sunwing is doing is presently legal and what the lodge operator was proposing isn't. Now if Gilles or others can get the legal system behind them then that's great.

However, I suspect that this would make some of this flying unfeasible and that would affect the bottom line and sustainability of the airline. With the exception of Westjet, there aren't too many airlines that are doing well in Canada and part of it is because of a number of constraints they have on them. What is certainly not needed to cure all that ails this industry is even MORE government tinkering, unless of course the Government were to unusually step-in and completely Reregulate the Canadian industry. If you are really want to shake your fist at what has done more to damage the profession in Canada, then the Federal Government should be your target (too many historical boondoogles to list).

We are not talking here about Canadian airlines hiring guys full-time. We are talking about them needing experienced people, for a few months, who can hit the ground running. You should know that it is simply not realistic or economical to hire a large number of people off the street, and put them through the whole battery of Ground, Type Rating, and Line Training to get them fully functional for just a few months of service. The time alone required for training is around 3 months.

Now, Gino Under I don't like the idea of having to buy a Type Rating but is it really such a great evil, compared to telling somebody that they need to get a Float Rating, an Instructor Rating, or even have a valid Instrument Rating? I mean, you would think that pilots that go after these qualifications for their first job are even more financially strapped and will often earn peanuts, which makes it all even less ethical. Maybe all Canadian pilots should put their foot down and insist "I will get my Commercial and Multi-engine ticket, but if you want me to Instruct, fly floats or in clouds, or throw bags on a ramp and pay me minimum wage then you pay for it too."

I sometimes think that entitlement-based attitudes keep us from moving ahead.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

We are not talking here about Canadian airlines hiring guys full-time. We are talking about them needing experienced people, for a few months, who can hit the ground running. You should know that it is simply not realistic or economical to hire a large number of people off the street, and put them through the whole battery of Ground, Type Rating, and Line Training to get them fully functional for just a few months of service. The time alone required for training is around 3 months.

Panama Jack, you must have missed the post I wrote here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84339 where I explained that it was not true that these jobs had to be seasonal and I explained how.

From day one, I explained that I was not against Immigration Canada's (CIC) reciprocity program, the one that allows foreign pilots into Canada for part of the year on the condition that an equal number of Canadians go work overseas for an equal period of time. That program is brilliant, makes financial sense and I am all for it, on the condition that the terms of the program are respected by both sides, which it was not by Sunwing, and which is why I am decrying it.

Canada and Europe have reversed seasons for single aisle aircraft such as the 320 or the 737. In Europe they are in High demand in the summer while in Canada they are in high demand in the winter. That Canadian and European airlines should decide to pool their resources in such planes and pilots to gain full use of both year round is a brilliant idea and CIC's reciprocity program allows it, Transport Canada regulations allow it. But when an airline imports over 200 foreign pilots into Canada while claiming they come on a reciprocity program and sends close to none overseas in exchange, I cry foul, and rightfully so.

As I explained in the above referenced post, if reciprocity were applied by the book, the jobs offered by the Canadian Airlines, like the European ones, would not be seasonal jobs, but 100 per cent full time year round jobs. Claiming that these jobs are seasonal and using that as an excuse to claim that they cannot afford to train the required pilots for such a short season is a gimmick and a lie used by these airlines to justify their practice.

Say Big-Bird airline only needs 200 pilots in the summer but needs 400 pilots in the winter. They could hire 200 full time Canadians and then resort to LMOs to try to hire 200 seasonal foreigners claiming that is was not economically feasible or technically feasible to train 200 part time pilots every year for such a short time. Then they would have me on their backs all year, and I'm getting better and better at this as time goes by.

The other solution that Big-Bird airline would have at its disposal is the CIC reciprocal program. They would need to hire an extra 100 full time Canadian pilots to bring their rosters to a total of 300 pilots, who would be retained year round. In the winter, they would import 100 foreign pilots on the CIC reciprocal program, providing them with the 400 they needed for the winter season. At the end of the season, these 100 foreign pilots would go back home and deal with their own high season, the summer, and to to help them deal with that high season, they would take with them 100 Canadian pilots from the company they had just helped out, which would then be left only with 200 pilots, the number required in Canada for the summer.

This way no jobs in Canada are seasonal, and no jobs in Europe are seasonal. Full time jobs all around for everyone.

Canjet and Sunwing both know with which airlines they can sign such reciprocal agreements. They are the same airlines they lease their part time aircraft from. Any airline that can lease a 737 to Sunwing or Canjet for 6 months out of the year has pilots to spare during the same season.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Now, Gino Under I don't like the idea of having to buy a Type Rating but is it really such a great evil, compared to telling somebody that they need to get a Float Rating, an Instructor Rating, or even have a valid Instrument Rating? I mean, you would think that pilots that go after these qualifications for their first job are even more financially strapped and will often earn peanuts, which makes it all even less ethical. Maybe all Canadian pilots should put their foot down and insist "I will get my Commercial and Multi-engine ticket, but if you want me to Instruct, fly floats or in clouds, or throw bags on a ramp and pay me minimum wage then you pay for it too."

In Canada, there is no school or company that provides 737NG type ratings to individuals. Even with cash in hand you will not be able to find it. Why? Because all the companies that have 737NG aircraft provide the 737NG type rating in-house to all their pilots, and that inlcudes Sunwing and Canjet. So there is no clientele for such a rating.

There are companies in the US that provide 737 ratings to private individuals if you can pay for it, but they only have examiners to add the type rating on the FAA licence, not the Transport Canada one. And in the US, the FAA make no difference between the 737-200 and an NG, the rating you get is generic 737. That is why its called a 737, its the same type.

http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/

Transport Canada breaks the 737 into three different type ratings http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... t-2276.htm so there is no possibility for an equivalency from FAA to TC.

The only time Canadians are in need of a 737 type rating to be hired, is when Canjet and Sunwing insert bogus advertisements in the paper and on Websites for the specific purpose of asking HRSDC for LMOs to hire foreigners instead of Canadian. They will not even consider Canadians. The proof ? I just collected about 70 Resumes of Canadians who had applied to Canjet and/or Sunwing. Six of these had a 737NG rating and three of them had flown it as captain. As I write these words, none of them has even gotten an interview.

It's all B/S, and it must come to a stop NOW.

[mbav8r]

Panama Jack wrote;
like the ideas of jobs for Canadians, but more importantly, I believe in careers for Canadians. The key ingredient for a long-term career is a strong employer; and that requires a dose of economic reality. I don't believe that Sunwing and Canjet are spitefully going out of their way to hire Canadian pilots but I do believe they are looking for an economical, short-term solution to a short term problem/opportunity. If you or I were running an airline with the goal of running it as a profitable and on-going concern, we would be doing something similar and I would like to suggest that the permanent pilots at Sunwing and Canjet have more secure positions and a better long-term career outlook because of it.

Dear Mr. Panama Jack,
Respectfully what they're creating is not a long term stable career, it's a continual recycling of jobs. Sunwing found a way to do it cheaper and flood the market in the winter with cheap seats, while they cry foul on the over saturation of the liesure market, pot and kettle. Problem is, there is only so much market to go around and while they create a going concern company, others have to cut in order to stay afloat. Evidenced as Transat Pilots agreed to a pay freeze and still end up with lay offs, Air Canada starts an LCC that pays 767 Captains 120.00/hr, Jazz lost the TC contract, the list goes on.
If this pratice were abolished, what would Sunwing do? My guess they would only offer the amount of capacity they could handle legitimately but if this practice continues, others companies will either have to adapt or fail and thats not good for long term career outlooks. Especially when they won't even hire some of the pilots that were layed off.

[hamstandard]

[quote="Gilles Hudicourt"][quote="Panama Jack"]
We are not talking here about Canadian airlines hiring guys full-time. We are talking about them needing experienced people, for a few months, who can hit the ground running. You should know that it is simply not realistic or economical to hire a large number of people off the street, and put them through the whole battery of Ground, Type Rating, and Line Training to get them fully functional for just a few months of service. The time alone required for training is around 3 months.
[/quote]



The other solution that Big-Bird airline would have at its disposal is the CIC reciprocal program. They would need to hire an extra 100 full time Canadian pilots to bring their rosters to a total of 300 pilots, who would be retained year round. In the winter, they would import 100 foreign pilots on the CIC reciprocal program, providing them with the 400 they needed for the winter season. At the end of the season, these 100 foreign pilots would go back home and deal with their own high season, the summer, and to to help them deal with that high season, they would take with them 100 Canadian pilots from the company they had just helped out, which would then be left only with 200 pilots, the number required in Canada for the summer.

This way no jobs in Canada are seasonal, and no jobs in Europe are seasonal. Full time jobs all around for everyone.
[/quote]

I think some pilots are quite happy with seasonal work and don't want to go to Europe for 6 months straight.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think some pilots are quite happy with seasonal work and don't want to go to Europe for 6 months straight.

Which is fine also if the airlines can find enough guys like you and that you are able to convince them that you will come back the following year in order for them to get a good return in the investment they will have made in your type rating. One pilot wrote to me he would be very happy flying a 737 every winter and water bombers every summer. It would be great if such pilots and Sunwing/Canjet could hook-up instead of seeing these airlines use the seasonal thing as a justification for hiring foreigners.

[pelmet]

I think some pilots are quite happy with seasonal work and don't want to go to Europe for 6 months straight.

Which is fine also if the airlines can find enough guys like you and that you are able to convince them that you will come back the following year in order for them to get a good return in the investment they will have made in your type rating. One pilot wrote to me he would be very happy flying a 737 every winter and water bombers every summer. It would be great if such pilots and Sunwing/Canjet could hook-up instead of seeing these airlines use the seasonal thing as a justification for hiring foreigners.

Then perhaps we should encourage this. The two airlines don't want to train people who then leave....so have the people trained sign a bond instead of some people around here screaming about bonds. 4 years pro-rated, Canjet and Sunwing have to offer this type of job available to non type rated Canadian pilots first. If no takers with a reasonable background experience available(perhaps 3,000 hours total with 1500 multi turbine for FO/ 4,000 hours total-500 PIC glass jet over 12,500 lbs for Captain)...then the two airlines can fill the rest with foreigners. Phased in over two or three years to not have an overwhelming amount of training. Or something like that.

I suggest that this method be proposed by you as a reasonable solution. Problem solved if they accept.

[Panama Jack]

I know I am the pro-bond, pro-type rating, pro-foreign laborers image of a fat-cigar smoking Republican demon, but pelmet's suggestion makes a lot of sense. While not the perfect fix, it should be able to satisfy most reasonable people by providing the employment for unemployed locals here while addressing the operators' concerns for a cost-effective short term solution although it still does not allow as much flexibility as they would probably like (who would dare to forecast what demand and a schedule might look like for the Winter of 2015?).

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think some pilots are quite happy with seasonal work and don't want to go to Europe for 6 months straight.

Which is fine also if the airlines can find enough guys like you and that you are able to convince them that you will come back the following year in order for them to get a good return in the investment they will have made in your type rating. One pilot wrote to me he would be very happy flying a 737 every winter and water bombers every summer. It would be great if such pilots and Sunwing/Canjet could hook-up instead of seeing these airlines use the seasonal thing as a justification for hiring foreigners.

Then perhaps we should encourage this. The two airlines don't want to train people who then leave....so have the people trained sign a bond instead of some people around here screaming about bonds. 4 years pro-rated, Canjet and Sunwing have to offer this type of job available to non type rated Canadian pilots first. If no takers with a reasonable background experience available(perhaps 3,000 hours total with 1500 multi turbine for FO/ 4,000 hours total-500 PIC glass jet over 12,500 lbs for Captain)...then the two airlines can fill the rest with foreigners. Phased in over two or three years to not have an overwhelming amount of training. Or something like that.

I suggest that this method be proposed by you as a reasonable solution. Problem solved if they accept.

Then the Canadian company will have to chose between those Canadian candidates (with 3,000 hours total with 1500 multi turbine for FO/ and 4,000 hours total-500 PIC glass jet over 12,500 lbs for Captain) and a type rated foreigner.
If we open that door to them, do you know that all they have to say in order to favor the type-rated foreigners is that they interviewed all the non-rated Canadians but that one had bad breath, the other had body odor, a third twitched his fingers and avoided eye contact during the interview and that a fourth looked sharp and smelled like Paco Rabanne, but has a womanizer reputation in his previous company, so we'll skip all of them, save for one or two to shut you guys up, and hire 198 type-rated foreigners instead of 200.

Maybe the bond is a solution for seasonal pilots, but its too easy to make up excuses to not hire someone when there are certain candidates that your company has reasons to favor. In the case of Sunwing, do not forget that many of the type rated foreigners are employed by TUI owned airlines in Europe, are being paid by their employers while idle in Europe during the winter and that TUI owns 49% of Sunwing. I imagine there is some pressure on Sunwing to hire these foreigners instead of you sorry non-rated Canadians.

That is why I favor the reciprocity method for foreigners. One Canadian = One foreigner.
Or else, part time Canadians, if such willing part timers can be found. But they must be provided with a type rating. How does one lay off a guy in the the spring and still have the same guy tied to a bond requiring him to come back to work on November 15th ? How do the water bomber operators who lay off in the winter retain their experienced captains ?

As for the requirements, they must be the same year round. Companies should not be allowed to hire some 1200 hour TT King Air pilots on the summer ground school and then require a 3000 hour 737NG rated pilot for the winter season unless there is a valid reason for it. Raising the bar to avoid hiring Canadians should not be a valid reason. You put an ad in the paper for 3000 hour pilots, show me the resumes of the last 100 guys on your payroll to see how many of them fit into that shoe.......

[pelmet]

I have come up with a reasonable solution. I suggest that you put it forward. If CJ and SW balk at it...you have proven them as unreasonable. If you are unwilling to propose this, perhaps something else.

A reasonable compromise is what is desired. If you stick hard to 1 Can=1 Foreigner when plenty of Canadians don't want to go to Europe for six months then it may be you who is not being helpful either. If they are given the choice of Europe in the summer or layoff, then great. Then what has been created is for every Canadian job taken by the foreigner, there is a job opportunity for a Canadian. But not necessarily taken up. Same thing in my book.