Sky Regional Pilot Contract

[Bede]

Here it is.

The Good:
1) Seniority is based on experience. I actually really like this system and think all airlines should do this. I'm against the seniority system because it affects labour mobility and ties employees to their employers who can abuse them because they know employees won't leave.
2) $40 if you don't need your hotel.

The Bad:
1) No day off guarantee?? WTF No Schduling rules?
2) No payscale with time
3) Residence requirements - obviously so they can call you in on a day off. I assume this means you have no freedom if you want to go somewhere on your days off.
4) You need to own a computer and cell phone

The Ugly:
1) Pay is bad, but gets worse. You don't get all your hourly pay until the end of the year. If you quit, you don't get the balance. I'm pretty sure this is illegal.

[NAT2]

Best of luck to them.

[Cap'n Tripps]

Bede, I think you may have to look at it again.

Minimum Guarantee
In addition to annual base salary, a Pilot who is available for the whole year shall be paid for a minimum of
680 Flight Credits per year. Any shortfall shall be made up by the Company at year end. A Pilot who leaves
the Company during the course of the year shall not be entitled to any shortfall.

The way I read that, if you leave during the year with less than 680 flight credits, they won't pay you the the difference or shortfall. If you stay the entire year, they guarantee a minimum of 680 flight credits. It doesn't say they you have to wait a year to get your flight credit pay.

Still a sucky deal though.

[Dilbert Pickles]

Heard they're considering hiring foreign pilots because they can't find applicants here...

Sorry, couldn't resist...

The sad part is, I could actually see this happening. With such piss poor conditions, who in their right mind would work there? I believe their original start up date was for Jan 1st, but because of poor response to pilot hiring has been pushed until March. They're desperately calling pilots asking them to reconsider, but are not offering anything more...
These plugs are going to thrive on pilots who are probably experiencing tough economic times with a company layoff or bankruptcy. Who have mortgages to pay and hungry families to feed. Lets hope they stay where they deserve- on the ground!

DP

[sluggo]

Here it is.

The Good:
1) Seniority is based on experience. I actually really like this system and think all airlines should do this. I'm against the seniority system because it affects labour mobility and ties employees to their employers who can abuse them because they know employees won't leave.
2) $40 if you don't need your hotel.

The Bad:
1) No day off guarantee?? WTF No Schduling rules?
2) No payscale with time
3) Residence requirements - obviously so they can call you in on a day off. I assume this means you have no freedom if you want to go somewhere on your days off.
4) You need to own a computer and cell phone

The Ugly:
1) Pay is bad, but gets worse. You don't get all your hourly pay until the end of the year. If you quit, you don't get the balance. I'm pretty sure this is illegal.

From what I have heard there are still things to be ironed out before the airline can enjoy success. It's pretty apparent that it has the better part of the road ahead of itself to mature. As is, what the guys actually get at the end of the day is better than the way the agreement reads. The TOE seems to describe a "worst case". I know of a couple of captains who near double the amount of their base-pay. For clarity on your points, Bede:

Bad?

- Days off - 10 guaranteed/ mo, although you are at home more than this with very few overnights to date

- Scheduling - They are apparently getting a system similar to FLICA in the new year

- Payscale - ... TBA? Don't know.

- Days off - The only time they can nab you for work is on a standby or while on reserve. You can go anywhere in the world you want on days off on AC/STAR alliance/ZED fare passes.

- Computer/cell phone - It does require you to have these but most people need these anyway. If a company includes this in the TOE then you should be able to include these costs when you file your taxes?

Ugly?

- The pay is currently lower than average. Yup.

- You get your hourly pay and any extra credits at the end of each month.

[Bede]

Cap't Tripps,

I read it a bunch of times and can't quite figure it out 100%. On second reading, I think it's not quite as bad, but still pathetic. Let's say you work 50 hrs/month (the only reason the min credit is so low is so they can work you as little as they want). As a captain, you're making $3817/mo. After 10 months of work you quit. Min credit would be 567 hours (680/12*10), but you've only flown 500 hours. You should be getting $1541 (567-500*23). Instead you get nothing. Clever retention bonus.

It seems like a strange compensation strategy. Usually, if company's want to avoid a union drive, they pay reasonably well (WJ, Honda, Toyota). If they don't mind a union, they low ball at the beginning and consider a union the cost of doing business. The way it looks, they don't mind a union drive starting day 1.

[Bede]

sluggo,

I'm glad things are better than the contract, but those things should be in the contract. Sure they guarantee 10 days off/month now, but they left that stuff out for a reason- so they can unilaterally change it.

Seems too bush league for me. I had contracts like that when I started flying, but I was flying a Navajo North of 60.

[teacher]

1) Seniority is based on experience. I actually really like this system and think all airlines should do this. I'm against the seniority system because it affects labour mobility and ties employees to their employers who can abuse them because they know employees won't leave.

Should be like that everywhere! The number one problem with our industry an why we as a profession will never move forward until this changes.

Although come to think of it that portion of their contract is probably to entice retired AC folks to come over and keep a good schedule

[termerair]

Don't you have to pay for part of your parking pass at the airport as well...?

T.

[Takeoff OK]

I know of a couple of captains who near double the amount of their base-pay.

This always amuses me. People flying their asses off, picking up as much opentime/overtime as they can, and thereby "doubling" their pay does not equal good pay. This equals sacrifice of QOL for some extra bucks. Looking at it any other way is a misinterpretation of reality.

For clarity on your points, Bede:

Bad?

- Days off - 10 guaranteed/ mo, although you are at home more than this with very few overnights to date

Worse than any US regional operating equivalent equipment.

- Scheduling - They are apparently getting a system similar to FLICA in the new year

Really has almost zero effect on QOL. Flica is only as useful as the parameters the company enters into it. With no clear scheduling language I cannot see why Flica or no Flica is even worth mentioning.

- Payscale - ... TBA? Don't know.

Edited. I misunderstood the language. It will be very interesting to see what it becomes. By the way, when exactly do you guys expect the pay scales to be announced?

- Days off - The only time they can nab you for work is on a standby or while on reserve. You can go anywhere in the world you want on days off on AC/STAR alliance/ZED fare passes.

I see no language prohibiting junior-manning. Hopefully you won't learn what that is.

AC travel bennies and Zeds sound great, but wait to see your priority...

- Computer/cell phone - It does require you to have these but most people need these anyway. If a company includes this in the TOE then you should be able to include these costs when you file your taxes?

If they require you to have these items, then they should be at least partially compensating you for them.

Ugly?

- The pay is currently lower than average. Yup.

- You get your hourly pay and any extra credits at the end of each month.

Yes. Ugly. Jazz should prepare to be raped because there is no way they will be able to outbid Sky when their service agreement comes up.

Very sad indicators for the industry going forward.

[Takeoff OK]

1) Seniority is based on experience. I actually really like this system and think all airlines should do this. I'm against the seniority system because it affects labour mobility and ties employees to their employers who can abuse them because they know employees won't leave.

Should be like that everywhere! The number one problem with our industry an why we as a profession will never move forward until this changes.

Although come to think of it that portion of their contract is probably to entice retired AC folks to come over and keep a good schedule

I would agree with you if everyone else had the same seniority policy. They don't, so all this does is screw people who don't play the company's game. I suspect you're correct as to enticing AC folks, and this should be the first item eliminated in Sky's future unionized contract talks.

[flyer 1492]

I hope Encore has taken notice and will pay better than Sky Regional. Otherwise they will also have a problem attracting suitable candidates.

[snowball]

The pilots who agree to that TOE should hang their heads in shame. Seriously. Please don't even respond with a defense if you are and employee. There is no reasonable argument to accept those conditions.

[Bede]

I hope Encore has taken notice and will pay better than Sky Regional. Otherwise they will also have a problem attracting suitable candidates.

The problem isn't really the pay, it's the entire package. First year of Jazz is only slightly better, it's just that with Jazz, you get much more ie pension, etc.

WJE pay will sadly be similar to SR, but again, it's there there will be plenty of extra's to make the pay short term and and palatable ie ESP, flow through, etc. WJE won't have a problem finding high time guys at all. One rumour I heard is that once has been WJE up and running, for a bit WJ will take 100% of the guys from WJE. It will be the only way to the mainline- the way it should be IMHO.

[justwork]

One rumour I heard is that once has been WJE up and running, for a bit WJ will take 100% of the guys from WJE. It will be the only way to the mainline- the way it should be IMHO.

Really Bede? You think %100 of mainline employees should come from WJE? So someone who is awesome, would be the perfect fit at mainline but has a great job will have to quit that job and take something similar to SR in order to get on at mainline? Come on, that doesn't make sense. You did say WJE was going to be similar pay scale to SR right?

[Kosiw]

And just how does WJE build a cadre of experience to get the new airline up running when guys will bail on WJE for the mainline ? Encore will be like a revolving door for pilots, similar to what happened 10-15 years ago at the Air Canada commuters.

What is the incentive for experienced pilots to join WJE other than the chance to get on with WJ asap ? Hopefully the total package will be closer to Jazz than to SR

[proper]

"go for career"
- hmmmm was looking for the sodomized smilee... can't find one....seems fitting.

[Mig29]

The Good:
1) Seniority is based on experience. I actually really like this system and think all airlines should do this. I'm against the seniority system because it affects labour mobility and ties employees to their employers who can abuse them because they know employees won't leave.

Should be like that everywhere! The number one problem with our industry an why we as a profession will never move forward until this changes.

Although come to think of it that portion of their contract is probably to entice retired AC folks to come over and keep a good schedule

Not trying to pick a fight, just having a (civil) discussion here. Bede, you used to work for Jazz if I remember? Teacher, you work there still, right?

ALPA gives those two books about history of ALPA to its new hires? I know that it's not as sexy as browsing through Sports Illustrated or FHM magazine , but have you read the stories that airline pilots in early 1930s and 40s had to put up with if they didn't have a seniority based system. And you want to go back to that stone age?

Disclaimer: I totally agree and understand how some people ruin it for other, but it's a much smaller evil then if we went to the company's preferred seniority based system.

As for the rest of their contract, I truly hope Encore will be a better example. I truly hope...

[sstocker31]

Man....this industry is going to hell in a handbasket

[Legacy]

Man....this industry is going to hell in a handbasket

Yep, so what are we going to do about it? Oh just a minute, we will justify to everyone how we keep degrading this industry. IE Sky Regional. Oh but we have to put food on the table. Sorry but Borek will put your food on the table and then some.

[Bede]

Not trying to pick a fight, just having a (civil) discussion here. Bede, you used to work for Jazz if I remember? Teacher, you work there still, right?

ALPA gives those two books about history of ALPA to its new hires? I know that it's not as sexy as browsing through Sports Illustrated or FHM magazine , but have you read the stories that airline pilots in early 1930s and 40s had to put up with if they didn't have a seniority based system. And you want to go back to that stone age?

Sorry for the thread drift, but I got a PM about this point so I'll address it. I did work for Jazz and was a member of ALPA. The guys that ran APLA were probably some of the smartest, hardest working guys I have ever met. As far as trade unions go, I'd rather be represented by ALPA than any other union. However, I fundamentally disagree with most of what ALPA stands for. I have read about the history of ALPA and am familiar with what pilots have gone through. (It`s worth mentioning that those stories are highly biased in favour of ALPA and don`t mention some of the unsavory aspects of the early trade union movement.) However, there are key differences between the 30's and 40's and today. For one, we have adequate labour and safety regulations in place that we no longer need to fear for our lives or livelihoods (I will give ALPA large credit for this legislation). In fact, our labour laws today are so protective that employees are actually afforded better protection when they unrepresented. (This could be a whole article by it's self, but as an example, you cannot collect general and punitive damages when you are unjustly dismissed and are represented by a union. You also cannot have your own lawyer during wrongful dismissal proceedings- the lawyer works for the union, not you.) Secondly, the safety culture today is unparalleled-few professional pilots will break the rules on behalf of their employer.

What does a merit based system have to do with going back to the stone age? Do physicians become residents when they change hospitals? To partners become associates when they change law firms? Why do captains have to become first officers when they change airlines? It`s absurd. The argument is often made that the seniority system protects those who speak out. This may be true, but most of us would just call these basic people skills. I have never hesitated to mention concerns at any company I ever worked for. I was diplomatic though and my upgrade or status within the company has never been affected. As mentioned in an earlier post, companies use the seniority system to bind employees to their company. Look at Jazz. Jazz is a great company with a good contract and great pilots. Sadly, Jazz will see layoffs if not closure when the CPA expires. These circumstances are in no way the fault of the pilots. So what is a Jazz captain to do now? The writing is on the wall, yet it's a 50% pay cut to go anywhere. It's really not fair. In a ideal industry, any airline would value the experience and skills a Jazz captain would bring and hire them based on the merit's by comparing their experience to internal candidates and hiring the captain with the best qualifications.

My views are not coloured by my position in this industry. I have greatly benefited (and will continue to benefit) from the seniority system. I was hired at the beginning of the hiring boom by Jazz in 2005 at the age of 25. I spent 2 months on reserve and within a year was at 50% of the FO seniority list- all because my resume was looked at near the beginning of the hiring spree. Had I stayed at Jazz, I would have retired #1 on the list. At 30 I was hired by WestJet. Even though the upgrade times are longer now, I will be among the youngest captains when I get upgraded (I was the youngest in my ground school). Compare this with a guy I met who is below me on the list at WJ. He is 50 years old, spent years as a captain on heavies (I think he was a 330 skipper at Skyservice), he has a couple kids in university. He has a great attitude. One day he may be my first officer. How is this fair? Honestly, how is this fair? I hit the lottery as a young pilot and I'm set (so far anyways;). Another guy cuts his teeth at another company, which, of no fault of the pilot group, is now bankrupt. I have been asked how I would like if this guy got upgraded in front of me. Good question- I wouldn't mind at all- it would only be just.

We need to be members of the college of pilots. We need a merit based upgrade system and we need to limit the supply of new pilots by raising the standards for professional pilots. This will provide an increased wage for pilots and increased value for the consumer.

[DTO-2]

Great post Bede !! Could not have said it better...

+1

[bigskyjoc]

Just perused the Terms of employment attachment above. To be honest it is not worth the paper it is written on.

[teacher]

+1 here too.

[CanadianEh]

+1 Bede. I put my money where my mouth is and joined the College. It's a small price to pay for a movement in the right direction. Especially now that airlines have figured out how to turn the seniority system against us.