whipline wrote:Gonnabeapilot is absolutely correct. Rudder all things being equal the quality of life will diminish for the bottom part of both the Captain and first officer lists. If we bring over 100 pilots under wet leases as opposed to FLVC'S, the number of foreign pilots stays the same.

Ok, let me try to understand.

In the fall of 2012, SW had a permanent list of approximately 150 pilots and added 20 seasonal FO's. These 170 pilots were supplemented by foreign pilots to staff 29 aircraft for the 2012-2013 winter season. In the spring of 2013, SW converted the 20 seasonal pilots to permanent and then added another 30 permanent pilots to bring the permanent SW list up to just over 200 pilots. This was enough pilots to meet the wet lease staffing obligations of 7 aircraft deployed overseas and an additional 6 aircraft in North America.

For winter 2013-2014 SW is planning on approximately 32 aircraft. SW is adding approximately 40 seasonal pilots bringing the SW component to approximately 240 pilots. This seems to be a staffing formula that sees SW responsible to fully staff about 16 aircraft through the winter season. SW will once again supplement the remaining positions using foreign pilots under TFWP/FLVC and wet leases. Best guess is this represents about another 240 pilots considering the high daily utilization rates.

Any arrangement that sees SW compelled to staff incremental airframes using CDN pilots is a good thing isn't it? The SW list will grow beyond 240 and everybody on that list moves up. And unless SW has plans to increase the winter fleet beyond 32 airframes, then each additional CDN pilot added will mean one less foreign pilot will be required.

If TFWP/FLVC staffing eventually reaches zero due to gov't edict and reciprocal proportional wet lease is the only way to get foreign pilots in Canada then one could reasonably calculate that SW will have a permanent fleet of approximately 16-20 aircraft (up from 13) and that the reciprocal wet lease component will be on the order of 12-16 aircraft. The ultimate balance will be determined by commercial requirements, regulatory limitations, and the combination that makes the best economic sense for TUI considering that it is the principal lessee of the majority of the SW peak fleet.

As much as some would prefer status quo, the gov't press release on Friday has made it clear that status quo is no longer an option. You are correct - the pool of flying open for bidding by SW pilots in the winter will shrink. But the volume of flying overseas in summer could grow significantly. Quid pro quo?

I am very curious what comment will flow from TUI/SW in response. The only potential plot twist is that I am also sure that CanJet is looking to see if there is an opportunity for them with SW to fill in the gaping hole that will be left in their own operation after the Transat contract expires in June 2014. Once again, TUI has a bigger picture to consider before making decisions about where to buy the lift.

Summer 2014 at SW should be interesting. I am hoping that SW does eventually evolve to a permanent fleet of 20+ aircraft and that as a result there will be more upgrade opportunities than would be possible under status quo.

@Whipline, EA306 and gonnabeapilot;

What I get from your last posts is that you'd rather still like to see more temp foreign pilots working for SW as it would give you better relative seniority than a scheme that would give more jobs to fellow Canadian pilots because your schedules and base assignment would suffer from it? Is that it?

Please enlighten me!

Rudder and Jean. Whatever the number of pilots coming over from Europe is irrelevant. How many pilots Sunwing has hired is irrelevent. What we are saying is we'd like to have the foriegners do our training and go to the back of our seniority lists for the time they spend here. When they are on wet leases, they are still flying for us but under their OC and work rules and seniority list.

What gonnabeapilot stated is correct. Foreign pilots are going to be working for us, whatever the number. We'd like to have them at the back of our list rather then wet leases. Better quality of life for whoever is at the back of our lists. This is not about the amount of pilots Sunwing brings over. I can't Dr Seuss this any further.

Whimpline? Really? You want to go there?

Not my style... typo corrected.

You'll have to explain what "Dr. Seuss this" means, though... I don't get that reference. Sorry!

whipline wrote:Rudder and Jean. Whatever the number of pilots coming over from Europe is irrelevant. How many pilots Sunwing has hired is irrelevent. What we are saying is we'd like to have the foriegners do our training and go to the back of our seniority lists for the time they spend here. When they are on wet leases, they are still flying for us but under their OC and work rules and seniority list.

What gonnabeapilot stated is correct. Foreign pilots are going to be working for us, whatever the number. We'd like to have them at the back of our list rather then wet leases. Better quality of life for whoever is at the back of our lists. This is not about the amount of pilots Sunwing brings over. I can't Dr Seuss this any further.

I understand that you have been able to create a 'virtual seniority list' each winter of approximately 300 pilots by adding some of the foreign pilots to your rosters. But any way that you look at it, 300 permanent year round CDN pilot jobs is better than 300 hybrid pilot jobs each winter. That is 40+ upgrades and 90+ permanent pilots greater than right now. Whatever triggers that change is a good thing, isn't it?

And if SW elects to continue with the seasonal FO initiative to partially address the expanded winter fleet, it is entirely possible with the gov't tightening and eventually closing TFWP/FLVC loophole (which was also a tool for managing crew imbalances) that SW will also have to seasonally promote permanent FO's to seasonal Capt. Generally speaking, all I see is positives for current SW seniority list pilots although 65-75% of the much longer permanent seniority list will have to spend all or part of the summer season deployed in Europe on wet-lease. I foresee that this could partially be remedied in the future when SW adds its own widebodies for summer transatlantic ops You do want CDN pilots flying them this time, don't you?

I can't Dr Seuss this any further either.

Now you got it Rudder. Of course hiring and upgrades are great. And yes more pilots are heading on deployments now. This year basically everyone went. If we're going to be taking foreign pilots in, all we're saying is we'd rather have them at the back our list. The Jazz pilots on course soon will understand this very shortly.

No problem Jean, I never proof read either.

Several people seem to have misconstrued my comments so in keeping with the Dr. Zeuss theme, I'll try to break them down and hopefully get my point across a bit better.

The Initial 'Big Picture' Problem: Several years ago, Sunwing started to get a little silly and created a huge imbalance in the number of European pilots coming to Canada in the winter versus the number of Canadian pilots who were working in Europe during the summer. People took notice. People didn't like it. Based on the majority of the comments that I've read on avcanada, people didn't mind that European pilots were working in Canada. They just wanted to see it as a 1:1 Reciprocity program.

The Realization: People who didn't like what Sunwing was doing started looking at the rules and regulations governing the various programs that Sunwing was using to bring in the Europeans. They came to the conclusion that what Sunwing was doing was illegal (based on their interpretation of the law) and that Sunwing was counting the number of pilots it was sending to Europe several times over in order to satisfy the requirements of the various programs.

The New Problem: Now people became much more focussed on the small stuff. The legal language... TFWP/FLVC programs versus wet-lease programs... CARs regulations... all that kind of stuff. The big picture problem - "Let's work towards getting 1:1 Reciprocity" took a back seat to "This is legal, this isn't, this is a loophole, this isn't".

The Potential Solution: As was mentioned in several posts here, it looks like the rules and regulations are being modified to allow for Sunwing to continue to bring in European pilots to help deal with the peak demand in the winter season. The key is that the focus is going to be placed back on the 1:1 Reciprocity. However based on the latest information, it looks like the method by which that will happen is by allowing a wet lease for wet lease swap program.

The Point of my Initial Post: Are we lawyers or pilots?? People seem to have forgotten that the big picture problem is the desire for 1:1 reciprocity in any European exchange program. Should anyone outside of Sunwing really care if the way that happens is through a TFWP/FLVC program or through a wet lease for wet lease swap program? If you are a Canadian pilot with no attachment, than no, you shouldn't. As long as the legal language is modified to make it black and white legal, that should be all that matters. Regardless of the 'how', you should just be happy that the 1:1 reciprocity is going to be enforced. This solves the big picture problem.

The post that I originally replied to made mention of how the poster figured the future would be 15 Sunwing Airplanes deploying to Europe and 15 airplanes worth or Europeans deploying to Canada each winter. This would be 1:1 reciprocity and require the hiring of more Canadian pilots to support the operation. This is a very good thing indeed. However, a large number of people on here seem to think that a wet lease for wet lease swap program is the way that this should happen. My point is that for any Canadian pilot who is, or hopes to be, employed by Sunwing, this is the worst possible scenario. What would be much better is the historical way of doing things where we send wet leases to Europe and the Europeans comes to Canada under the TFWP/FLVC program. For the quality of life of all Canadian pilots at Sunwing, this is the best solution. Would the impact of modifying the TFWP/FLVC legislation versus modifying the legislation around wet leases be any different to anyone employed outside of Sunwing? Not a bit... It would still be enforcing 1:1 reciprocity and the 'big picture problem' would still be resolved. Would the impact of modifying the TFWP/FLVC legislation versus modifying the legislation around wet leases have a huge impact for those employed at Sunwing?? Absolutely.

People here seem to have turned their attention towards hating on the TFWP/FLVC program more than a wet lease program because it's seen as being "more illegal" and therefore worthy of more shunning. But the wonderful thing with legislation is that it can be modified so that the spirit behind it can be honoured. The point behind my post is that the people who have been advocating tirelessly for 1:1 Reciprocity should not automatically dismiss changes to the TFWP/FLVC program just because it's the easiest program to hate. Take the time to talk to the people whose lives it will actually impact (after all, we should all want what's best for EVERY Canadian pilot, shouldn't we?) when advocating for solutions. The goal has always been 1:1. The black and white behind it that permits it to happen, shouldn't really matter to the majority as long as the law is followed. However to the (soon to be) 250 Canadian pilots working at Sunwing, it most certainly does!

Hi, I am sure BALPA will find these comments interesting when it comes to discuss these matters.

My understanding is BALPA is also supportive of the status quo. Thomson pilots coming to work in Canada under the TFWP/FLVC can't be forced to Canada. It's volunteer only. Therefore the status quo puts pressure on Thomson to increase the terms and conditions surrounding the Canadian deployments to meet their crewing requirements, to the benefit of BALPA members. If things change towards a wet-lease to wet-lease exchange program Thomson will be able to force its pilots to Canada, regardless of terms and conditions. This benefits Thomson the airline, but not so much the Thomson pilots who are being shipping to Ottawa in the middle of January to fill the need.

Very well said Gonnabeapilot.

We should all be interested in the spirit of the law and what is best for Canadian pilots. In some respects we have been having a heated agreement .... Just disagreeing in other aspects on how to get there.

Jean: Have I ever said in any of my posts to read that I want to see MORE foreign pilots? I have never said that.

I am in favor of a balance over all....AND I am in favor of preserving life style for my Canadian Colleagues who presently fly for Sunwing as well as the Canadian pilots who will join us in the future.

Gonnabeapilot let me clarify a few things. I have always been for 1:1 reciprocity. I still am. I do not speak for ALPA but that is also their stated position.

This whole issue began when Sunwing, for several years in a row, used more foreign pilots in a calendar year then it employed Canadian pilots while at the same time attempting to claim that what is was doing was legitimate reciprocity (they claimed the imbalence allowed due to a backlog of imbalance in favor of Canadians over a period of several years)

No airline in any western country employs more foreigner pilots than locals and no western country would ever let such a scandalalous situation to occur to an airline within its borders. How Canada let itself stoop so low is beyond me. Those that expected Canadian pilots to accept such a situation to occur in Canada and just roll over are plain fools.

Sunwing hired several law firms who helped it exploit every law, regulation and loophole to achieve the imbalance that it was able to achieve in pilots. The reason we, the people who decided to tackle this anomaly, had to go through the regulations with a fine comb was to understand HOW Sunwing was doing what it was doing and attempt to discover if any rules were being violated or bent. And we found tons of them, the consequences of which have not all been felt yet. Now that the pendulum is finally swinging the other way, many are beginning to say that all of this should have never happened in the first place. But it did.

Had 1:1 reciprocity been respected from day one, none of us would be having this exchange and the new regulations and restrictions would not be necessary.

As I have stated from the beginning.
"Time will tell".
Balance needed to be found...and I still believe balance will be found.

Federal government puts cap on airline 'wet-leasing'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/fed ... -1.1442484

She also said the rules would not affect the amount of flights for Canadians hoping to travel on holiday.

That says a lot, doesn't it ?

Says it all.

At least we are seeing significant increases in Canadian Pilot employment at Sunwing which should make most of us happy if the trend continues.

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Federal government puts cap on airline 'wet-leasing'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/fed ... -1.1442484

She also said the rules would not affect the amount of flights for Canadians hoping to travel on holiday.

That says a lot, doesn't it ?

Does this mean the winter Wet lease base now just becomes Varadero and it carries on as per last year?

Well I've been doing some research... This winter WG plans 32 aircraft, 3 more then last years 29, which is roughly 42 extra flights per week assuming X2 daily, 7 days a week. This opens up a lot of extra capacity for higher frequencies on routes ect. Here's a list of their new flights operating this year for the first time:

Toronto - Curacao
WG720 YYZ0620 - CUR1225 738
WG721 CUR1325 - YYZ1745 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Dec 15th/13)

Montreal - Aruba
WG708 YUL0900 - AUA1510 738
WG709 AUA1610 - YUL2040 738 - X1 Weekly Monday Service (Effective Dec 16th/13)

Toronto - Ixtapa
WG591 YYZ1505 - ZIH1935 738
WG592 ZIH2025 - YYZ0159+1 738 - X1 Weekly Monday Service (Effective Dec 16th/13)

Montreal - Huatulco - Ixtapa
WG557 YUL0730 - ZIH1455 738 (VIA HUATULCO)
WG558 ZIH1545 - YUL2140 738 - X1 Weekly Tuesday Service (Effective Dec 17th/13)

Edmonton - Ixtapa
WG591 YEG0930 - ZIH1600 738
WG592 ZIH1700 - YEG2145 738 - X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Dec 19th/13)

Vancouver - Kelowna - Ixtapa
WG481 YLW0700 - ZIH1610 738 (VIA KELOWNA)
WG482 ZIH1710 - YLW2230 738 (VIA KELOWNA) X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Dec 19th/13)

Edmonton - Freeport
WG742 YEG0800 - FPO1530 738
WG743 FPO1630 - YEG2030 738 - X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Jan 16th/14)

Toronto - Freeport
WG702 YYZ0700 - FPO1020 738
WG705 FPO2220 - YYZ0140+1 738 - X1 Weekly Saturday Service (Effective Jan 18th/14)

Winnipeg - Freeport
WG704 YWG1600 - FPO2120 738
WG703 FPO1130 - YWG1500 738 - X1 Weekly Saturday Service (Effective Jan 18th/14)

Montreal - Freeport
WG710 YUL1650 - FPO2010 738
WG711 FPO2100 - YUL0020+1 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Jan 19th/14)

Ottawa - Freeport
WG776 YOW0600 - 0930FPO 738
WG777 FPO1030 - 1400YOW 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Jan 19th /14)

Halifax - Freeport
WG796 YHZ1630 - FPO1930 738
WG797 FPO2030 - YHZ0059+1 738 - X1 Weekly Friday Service (Effective Feb 14th/14)

In addition, I'm sure they are increasing frequencies on many routes. If anyone has any in-sight on new destinations or frequency changes please feel free to share them.

Sunwing Group recently purchased a hotel in Freeport, Bahamas and re-branded it as part of their "Memories" Hotel chain. They own a number of them in Cuba and now I guess are expanding. Westjet pulled X3 weekly YYZ-FPO service last year (IIRC) with only 1 hotel as an AI (All Inclusive) package option. Looking on WG's site they have multiple AI hotel packages available including Westjet's sole package provider last year. Lets see how Westjet responds to the competition...

Other then that the Montreal-Aruba and Toronto-Curacao routes were expected, there is still a void since Jazz lost the Thomas Cook Canada contract. The Ixtapa route has been tried in the past with Skyservice and Transat, I think Canjet operates that flight now so we'll see how that turns out.

Anyways just my two cents! The Winter 13/14 season is fast approaching and I can't wait!

I can't wait too... for the confusion on the radio with the foreign pilots and their terrible english! I bet ATC can"t wait too!

FICU wrote:I can't wait too... for the confusion on the radio with the foreign pilots and their terrible english! I bet ATC can"t wait too!

Well at least you will be able to understand ATC English. ... I do not know if you have gone flying in other parts of the world... ATC in other parts of the world can also be challenging to understand at times.... It's good to get out there and travel a bit...

Sunwing738 wrote:Well I've been doing some research... This winter WG plans 32 aircraft, 3 more then last years 29, which is roughly 42 extra flights per week assuming X2 daily, 7 days a week. This opens up a lot of extra capacity for higher frequencies on routes ect. Here's a list of their new flights operating this year for the first time:

Toronto - Curacao
WG720 YYZ0620 - CUR1225 738
WG721 CUR1325 - YYZ1745 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Dec 15th/13)

Montreal - Aruba
WG708 YUL0900 - AUA1510 738
WG709 AUA1610 - YUL2040 738 - X1 Weekly Monday Service (Effective Dec 16th/13)

Toronto - Ixtapa
WG591 YYZ1505 - ZIH1935 738
WG592 ZIH2025 - YYZ0159+1 738 - X1 Weekly Monday Service (Effective Dec 16th/13)

Montreal - Huatulco - Ixtapa
WG557 YUL0730 - ZIH1455 738 (VIA HUATULCO)
WG558 ZIH1545 - YUL2140 738 - X1 Weekly Tuesday Service (Effective Dec 17th/13)

Edmonton - Ixtapa
WG591 YEG0930 - ZIH1600 738
WG592 ZIH1700 - YEG2145 738 - X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Dec 19th/13)

Vancouver - Kelowna - Ixtapa
WG481 YLW0700 - ZIH1610 738 (VIA KELOWNA)
WG482 ZIH1710 - YLW2230 738 (VIA KELOWNA) X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Dec 19th/13)

Edmonton - Freeport
WG742 YEG0800 - FPO1530 738
WG743 FPO1630 - YEG2030 738 - X1 Weekly Thursday Service (Effective Jan 16th/14)

Toronto - Freeport
WG702 YYZ0700 - FPO1020 738
WG705 FPO2220 - YYZ0140+1 738 - X1 Weekly Saturday Service (Effective Jan 18th/14)

Winnipeg - Freeport
WG704 YWG1600 - FPO2120 738
WG703 FPO1130 - YWG1500 738 - X1 Weekly Saturday Service (Effective Jan 18th/14)

Montreal - Freeport
WG710 YUL1650 - FPO2010 738
WG711 FPO2100 - YUL0020+1 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Jan 19th/14)

Ottawa - Freeport
WG776 YOW0600 - 0930FPO 738
WG777 FPO1030 - 1400YOW 738 - X1 Weekly Sunday Service (Effective Jan 19th /14)

Halifax - Freeport
WG796 YHZ1630 - FPO1930 738
WG797 FPO2030 - YHZ0059+1 738 - X1 Weekly Friday Service (Effective Feb 14th/14)

In addition, I'm sure they are increasing frequencies on many routes. If anyone has any in-sight on new destinations or frequency changes please feel free to share them.

Sunwing Group recently purchased a hotel in Freeport, Bahamas and re-branded it as part of their "Memories" Hotel chain. They own a number of them in Cuba and now I guess are expanding. Westjet pulled X3 weekly YYZ-FPO service last year (IIRC) with only 1 hotel as an AI (All Inclusive) package option. Looking on WG's site they have multiple AI hotel packages available including Westjet's sole package provider last year. Lets see how Westjet responds to the competition...

Other then that the Montreal-Aruba and Toronto-Curacao routes were expected, there is still a void since Jazz lost the Thomas Cook Canada contract. The Ixtapa route has been tried in the past with Skyservice and Transat, I think Canjet operates that flight now so we'll see how that turns out.

Anyways just my two cents! The Winter 13/14 season is fast approaching and I can't wait!

I am looking forward to this Winter Season also!

Yup... Bogata center was painful but dealing with Russian military controllers on HF was the toughest.

Was poking around YYZ yesterday and from a distance saw a Travel Service 737-800 taxiing to terminal 1. Didn't catch the reg but it was parked at gate 163 or 165 (couldn't tell) for about 30-40 mins and then was towed to the infield. It was around 1500 ish when it landed and was towed to the infield at around 1600 just before Emirates landed. It was in full QS colours and to my knowledge the Sunwing dry-leases arrive already painted. (Stickered I should say) I'm assuming it is one of their QS wet-leases? Went through flightaware & flightstats and couldn't find anything about the aircraft. Does anyone know what the reg of said aircraft is and if it is in fact their first wet-lease of the season.

Also C-FYLC was ferried to Toronto on the 15th of October and has flown a few routes since then (YYZ-CUN, YYZ-VRA, YYZ-CUN) It flew as a wet-lease for Thomson over the summer.

Thanks.