HansDietrich wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:34 am (BTW, I'm left seat now, with a salary that I can afford to eat and send my kids to school, flying corporate). I'm not an ass to fly with, despite my AVCANADA politically incorrect posts, but I'm also not going to feel sorry for some Joe Schmoe or Jane Doe for "not willing to pay a fair price" to fly across the 2nd largest country in the world. Flying is not meant for everyone. It's expensive. Low cost carriers made everyone think that flying is affordable and "ANYONE CAN FLY"... At who's expense? What's next? "$99 spine surgery"?

If I sound negative, it's because I am. At least I'm willing to call out bullshit on the public and their unreasonable expectations.

I agree with you 100%, I got called a dirty right winger for saying the same comments about Swoop. ULCCs dilute the industry and wages. Flying is a privilege, and the unfortunate part is too many people, like you said, believe flying is a right, and a right at $50. The people the suffer the most for those low fares? The employees. Take a chunk of market away from big red? Theyll fight back with low prices, and sure enough wages follow the lack of revenue.

Id also like to point out ULCCs turn flying in to public transit. Stinky, trashy people fist fighting for overhead bin space.

telex wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:36 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am

Bacunayagua wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:08 am

Yeah! How dare these peasants want to travel and see family members they haven't been able to see in years? Plebs better learn their place and jump on Greyhound if they want to go anywhere. Best leave air travel to only those who can pay for an overpriced YYZ-YEG ticket. /S

The PFO finally reached his inbox. Usually the first ones to post overtly negative random critiques, were the first ones to get rejected.

I said the same thing about Swoop, if this comes to fruition, creates jobs, no matter how poorly paid, it dries up the talent pool and will be the eventual driver to industry wide wage increases.

You can't expect bottom feeders like Flair, New Leaf and Canada Jetlines to lead this industry if we openly justify and allow national companies like Air Canada to do the same.

The only way wages increase is from the top, ACPA needs to cut out the flat pay, and start qualified pilots off at a higher salary before we see any insurmountable change elsewhere. If AC can get away paying new FOs 52k++ flying mainline 777, then why should anyone else flying anything smaller do differently?

Food for thought.

S.

ps. New Leaf is defunct. Jetlines does not have an OC. Neither are relevant.

Thanks Telex, let's just edit that as Flair and potentials like Canada Jetlines. The real models would have been Flair and Swoop, but seeing how Swoop is now primarily staff with WS mainline paid pilots, it's just become more or less an extension of the WS LCC model.

I would've said all ULCCs, but they don't seem to be created equal. Down south, they seem to have some strong salaries at the ULCC level, but that is because the majors are paying talent at a very respectable rate - not quite Chinese or middle east levels of pay when you factor for taxes, but then again, you don't have to deal with the political headaches of being an expat.

S.

HansDietrich wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:34 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am The only way wages increase is from the top, ACPA needs to cut out the flat pay, and start qualified pilots off at a higher salary before we see any insurmountable change elsewhere. If AC can get away paying new FOs 52k++ flying mainline 777, then why should anyone else flying anything smaller do differently?

Food for thought.

S.

Hey, I agree with you 100% here. AC is the top SCUM, followed by the rest of them. That's why I left the airlines.

(BTW, I'm left seat now, with a salary that I can afford to eat and send my kids to school, flying corporate). I'm not an ass to fly with, despite my AVCANADA politically incorrect posts, but I'm also not going to feel sorry for some Joe Schmoe or Jane Doe for "not willing to pay a fair price" to fly across the 2nd largest country in the world. Flying is not meant for everyone. It's expensive. Low cost carriers made everyone think that flying is affordable and "ANYONE CAN FLY"... At who's expense? What's next? "$99 spine surgery"?

If I sound negative, it's because I am. At least I'm willing to call out bullshit on the public and their unreasonable expectations.

End of the day, if it supplies a job and removes qualified candidates from the talent pool, I am all for it. If staff can make it work and be happy at those rates, as you are, who is to tell them otherwise. Let 'em work.

As far as passengers, if they want to stuff themselves in that sub-economy seat and fly 5 hours, and the money collected from said seat pays a wage, I couldn't give 2 cents. Let 'em fly.

AC will, once the talent dries up, do one of two things: either they will increase salary to attract qualified pilots or they will invest in an ab-initio feeder network that relies more heavily on lower experienced pilots to justify their wage structure, in addition to their regional structure and not unlike Cathay.

And guys, don't get me wrong, AC long term has some great benefits (pension, health and travel), but what major North American carrier doesn't? Those carriers also happen to have the pay that goes with it.

It's time to stop ripping on these micro carriers and push for change at the top. They are an unfortunate by-product of AC and to a lesser extent WS.

S.

Come now, in this day and age flying, as one form of transportation, is in fact for everyone.
In the 21st century to think that flying is the domain of the elite, is...well, out of date!

cloak wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:21 pm Come now, in this day and age flying, as one form of transportation, is in fact for everyone.
In the 21st century to think that flying is the domain of the elite, is...well, out of date!

Well I never said flying is for the Elite only. I am not ELITE and I pay full fare on Air Canada, Lufthansa, Swiss or Austrian whenever I go back to the homeland. I don't fly WOW Air or Ryanair for $500 return...

HansDietrich wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:31 pm

cloak wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:21 pm Come now, in this day and age flying, as one form of transportation, is in fact for everyone.
In the 21st century to think that flying is the domain of the elite, is...well, out of date!

Well I never said flying is for the Elite only. I am not ELITE and I pay full fare on Air Canada, Lufthansa, Swiss or Austrian whenever I go back to the homeland. I don't fly WOW Air or Ryanair for $500 return...

That's great, good for you. At the same time, if there are people that want to fly WOW for $500 to Europe and WOW can do it for that price and provide employment, more power to them. If the economics don't work, the market will correct it. While the revenue stream came from fewer higher-paying customers in the past, the new reality of the industry and its revenue is in higher volumes with lower yields.

Except WOW seems to be in some real financial troubles. All the Ulcc's either never get off the ground, or go under in a couple of months, or the death is a bit slower. I don't think the Ulcc model does work. Anywhere.

C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:55 am Except WOW seems to be in some real financial troubles. All the Ulcc's either never get off the ground, or go under in a couple of months, or the death is a bit slower. I don't think the Ulcc model does work. Anywhere.

Spirit

Seriously? Other than Spirit, how about Allegiant, Ryanair, easyJet, Norwegian, couple sprouting in our own back yard....

Ryanair had how many flights cancelled this year due to pilot strike? The "couple in our back yard" are new and time will tell. I stand by my statement.

Spirit is the only one to have seemed to have figured out ULCC. WestJet was modelled the same, but now has moved hard into legacy carrier territory.

Any news on starting operations and the hiring of pilots ?

Crickets... No OC so not really a contender at this time.

Apparently they're doing an ACMI lease for the next eight years. So unless you have Latvian citizenship, you might be SOL! Not sure how much to read into this though...

Thanks.

Although I cant see how a ULCC is going to make money doing an ACMI, unless SmartLynx is going to work for maple syrup.

They might make money if they are paying very little, which would be likely if they bring foreign pilots. However, if that is their plan, in this environment of overcapacity it seems unlikely that Canada Jetlines is going to convince the minister.

Good to see some positivity.

Maybe a few concerns though...

- EJ has an OC. JL does not.

- EJ has an airframe on the OC. JL does not.

- EJ has funding. JL does not.

Funding ..

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/jetlines- ... financing/

Ugh, just die already. Nobody wants this.

Been discussing this thread since 2013, it is getting quite silly actually, would suggest the best before date for this company is long expired.