May 1 startup day Air Georgian

[Mig29]

They were offered incentives to vote yes to the company's first few offers that included lesser working conditions and wages. The group voted no. When work, jobs and whatever else on the table was threatened, the group basically banded together and said "do what you need to do, but we won't vote in a c scale or this 705 pay scale".

It's been said over and over but the 705 pay is in place thanks to their union 'leader' who signed an Lou behind the groups backs. Speaking with a few of their yyz pilots, he is despised by many.

And this union leader is still their union leader!?? I think the guys over there need to vote a new leader and then they can call the 1800 ALPA number and request their assistance in establishing a normal union at GGN. Because as of now, the current association there is just a joke. It hasn't changed much over the years.

[BingBong]

Rooster,

As a Jazz pilot, it's pretty tough to just sit back in silent frustration as the work that you have done for many years is sold off to the lowest bidder with no real end in sight to that sale.
You are absolutely correct, frustration needs to be properly directed.

This is a great career, and it's a career that's worth fighting for.
We have to work together and take it back from the MBA's.

rxl

I can understand that and your groups frustration. However there is a very wrong and discriminatory and judgemental view going on here that GGN pilots are scabs and scum. It's a crying shame because they did a lot to prevent the future generations from stepping into worse conditions. They were offered incentives to vote yes to the company's first few offers that included lesser working conditions and wages. The group voted no. When work, jobs and whatever else on the table was threatened, the group basically banded together and said "do what you need to do, but we won't vote in a c scale or this 705 pay scale".

It's been said over and over but the 705 pay is in place thanks to their union 'leader' who signed an Lou behind the groups backs. Speaking with a few of their yyz pilots, he is despised by many.

I just get sick of you pilots at better companies looking down at other pilot groups calling them scabs and scum and going as far as wishing ill will.

I think they at least deserve better than what you're all giving them.

There is no unity amongst pilots. So why bother preaching about it. Every man for himself right?

Again...saying no to worse WAWCON is appreciated and takes a strong group. But don't put your name
In the hat for the shiney new jet which you all supposedly said no to.

hypocrite[ hip-uh-krit ]
noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[av8ts]

How many times in the past have people used the words "i was just doing my job" or "if i don't someone else will" to justify their actions or inaction. Until people stand up and stop hiding behind these words there will be no change.

[Koalemos]

And this union leader is still their union leader!?? I think the guys over there need to vote a new leader and then they can call the 1800 ALPA number and request their assistance in establishing a normal union at GGN. Because as of now, the current association there is just a joke. It hasn't changed much over the years.

Heh, I had the same reaction. I am told he took a layoff with the Halifax base closure, different dude now.

Again...saying no to worse WAWCON is appreciated and takes a strong group. But don't put your name
In the hat for the shiney new jet which you all supposedly said no to.

hypocrite[ hip-uh-krit ]
noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

I was not given numbers, but that they had to hire off the street and abroad (especially Captains) because enough GGN pilots *wouldn't* take the jet. Painting all the GGN pilots with the same brush is rather unfair and simple minded.

It's unfortunate so many people on these boards, and in the industry in general, sound like mud slinging Politicians. Pointing and screaming at the Effect instead of addressing the Cause does nothing. Yes, its unfortunate that a few GGN pilots took the jet, personally I disagree with their actions and it certainly does not help things. But they would be finding bodies to put in those seats one way or another. Ostracizing a sector of the pilot group for the actions of a few doesn't help. The fact is Air Canada management are the Cause of all this, they are the ones pushing for a low budget regional model. You want to fix this? You need to fix the source.

Folks,

If you truly love this industry and you want to make significant change then here is my advice, if you are an AC, ACJ, Sky, or GGN/EVAS pilot, our MEC or association leaders should be in one room coming up with one list. The college is too far behind to achieve this, but our unions/associations are not. Will it be perfect? No, but will it stop the downward trend? If done right yes, I believe it will, so lobby your LEC and MEC chairs that we need to stick together.

"Together we stand, divided we fall" enough said.

Cheers, Loc

+1

The College states explicitly on their website they are not interested in WAWCON. I'm sure they will do great things given time, but Localizer is right, time is not something that we have in abundance if we want to stop this downward spiral. Having minimum WAWCON for everyone would guarantee that this type of thing wouldn't happen. But as has been said over and over, we need unity, and people seem more interested in pointing fingers. Its really a shame.

[TGale]

The solution will not come from the CPPC but from the individuals who will make up the membership. Therefore until the profession is properly represented that will influence regulators and employers it is up to the individuals to act as they wish to be represented. As long as we/you/they/I, continue to apply for positions that represent an offensive WAWCON they will continue to exist. To new pilots: please do not apply for jobs that are going to undermine the careers of our/your/their/my peers. To current pilots, please talk to, or at least consider, the pilots whose positions will be reduced when justifying what you are doing as the "right thing". I recommend a face to face discussion…

Are we/you/they/I part of the problem or part of the solution?

With all due respect,

TGale

[navajo_jay]

The solution will not come from the CPPC but from the individuals who will make up the membership. Therefore until the profession is properly represented that will influence regulators and employers it is up to the individuals to act as they wish to be represented. As long as we/you/they/I, continue to apply for positions that represent an offensive WAWCON they will continue to exist. To new pilots: please do not apply for jobs that are going to undermine the careers of our/your/their/my peers. To current pilots, please talk to, or at least consider, the pilots whose positions will be reduced when justifying what you are doing as the "right thing". I recommend a face to face discussion…

Are we/you/they/I part of the problem or part of the solution?

With all due respect,

TGale

Exactly!! I've had many opportunities to work for these kind of airlines. But I have pride in what I do and I will not contribute to lowering our conditions. I have friends as well that work for 703 operators and turned down SKY. People, put you glasses on and stop thinking just for yourself. In aviation, we learn to think ahead and always be ahead of the airplane. But hell, why is there always guys taking jobs like this. We all have bills to pay, but if I would be laid off or looking for work, I would never ever apply or take a job at these companies just for my pride and my fellow pilot friends! I also educate my friends doing their commercial flight training and others in 703 operators to not work for SKY or GGN. I've never worked for free, so why work for cheaper and make every body elses conditions go down.

[Krimson]

if I would be laid off or looking for work, I would never ever apply or take a job at these companies just for my pride and my fellow pilot friends!

You would rather take a job at McDonalds out of pride, than work in your field while still advancing your career?

There are mouths to feed, pride and your pilot friends aren't going to put food on the table.

[CanadianEh]

There are mouths to feed, pride and your pilot friends aren't going to put food on the table.

Nor will a job as a pilot if we keep allowing this race to the bottom. Catch 22. How many mouths can an American regional pilot feed on $16,000 a year? Barely even their own, which is why they need food stamps

[Krimson]

I'm not saying it's good what's going on, but to say I'd rather sit on the sidelines unemployed than work for XXX operator is just ridiculous and untrue. If their comfy seats got taken away from them, I would bet my house they're not turning down a job offer from Sky Regional after 6 months.

[TGale]

That's the problem with principles. Sometimes they are not cheap. And they are usually not easy.
Unfortunately, when we have a passion for something, we may be willing to sacrifice our principles to satisfy the passion. And with this in mind I always try to remind myself of my priorities… and principles. Does the golden rule still apply?

[TGale]

if I would be laid off or looking for work, I would never ever apply or take a job at these companies just for my pride and my fellow pilot friends!

You would rather take a job at McDonalds out of pride, than work in your field while still advancing your career?

There are mouths to feed, pride and your pilot friends aren't going to put food on the table.

How is dragging down the standards of the profession going to advance your career? What exactly is your goal??? Also don't confuse pride with principles. One builds barriers the other builds character.

May I suggest that an organization such as CPPC could include in their code of ethics and constitution to provide assistance to pilots in need?
We need to set a foundation if we are going to build a house people…

There are a lot of jobs, even careers that will take better care of your family than asking them to share in your personal sacrifice to pursue a career in aviation. There is no reason why anyone should be ignorant of the risks to your personal health and well being before getting involved in this industry, not now.

[Krimson]

How is dragging down the standards of the profession going to advance your career? What exactly is your goal??? Also don't confuse pride with principles. One builds barriers the other builds character.

Having a job is what is advancing your career.

How about the principle of providing for your family? Keeping a roof over their heads. I didn't sink all that money and time to not hold a job in my field. EI isn't going to keep my roof over my head. Fortunately I am not in need of a low paying job to just stay afloat, but if it were to happen, you can count on my application being sent everywhere that I can cover my bills and feel safe working.

Those jobs are not going anywhere, if everyone stands on their soapbox claiming they will not take the job, don't wonder why it gets outsourced to foreign workers or a cadet program gets introduced. Its simple business and no one is going to offer you a 20k bonus because you're a good player.

[TGale]

I hear you loud and clear crimson.

[Cpt_frog]

All ggn pilots aren't the same!
As for the "union" and ALPA,
I do remember the pilots asking for help end of 2011!
They where apparently turned down by ALPA, since all 3 groups (pilots, maintenance and office staff) whereoperating under the samecontract...

The only ones willing to take them was IAM.
But unfortunately,
At that time, their union president thought better to trade his co-workers contract for a job at AC...

(#crook)

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Interesting. What is this fine gentleman's name ?

[ikarus]

then someone needs to help GGN guys and provide them with tools on how to first disband their association and then ALPA can step in. Obviously their hands are tied with tow other departments being grouped together in their association.

[teacher]

then someone needs to help GGN guys and provide them with tools on how to first disband their association and then ALPA can step in. Obviously their hands are tied with tow other departments being grouped together in their association.

I believe the problem is that ALL employee groups in the GGN union would have to agree to disband, not just the pilots. Majority rules.

[rxl]

The Georgian pilots affected should check out Section 37 of The Canada Labour Code.
By the sounds of it, and of course this is my own simpleton's interpretation, their former leader and union/association might be in violation of that section - "Duty of Fair Representation".
Maybe worthy of a complaint to the CIRB?

A common PILOT union or college or whatever you want to call that particular collectivity WOULD be all over this.
Right Ladies and Gentlemen?

Just a thought.

Respect,
rxl

[rxl]

BTW, Who or what is Georgian's certified bargaining agent?

[Heisenberg666]

Ontario Regional Employees Association.

The contract is so poorly written, that it's used more as a tool against employees. Sometimes I think we'd be better off without it.