Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

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phil350
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Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by phil350 »

I was looking for some perspective/opinions on which would be better; flying for a mainline Canadian or US carrier.

As background, I have the right to work in both countries, with a competitive resume and both TC and FAA ATPLs. Right now the plan is to settle in YYZ, and while being domiciled there would be nice, NYC and DTW are pretty close commutes. While I know this might be very situation dependent, I'm looking for what pluses and minuses one could think of.

Thanks in advance!
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

You'll need a 4 year Bachelors degree to get on with a major in the U.S.

It's pretty competitive down there right now, plenty of very qualified guys have been stuck at the regionals for many years logging left seat time. Hopefully as the hiring picks up things won't be so tough.

Tax wise I'm not sure if living in Canada and working in the U.S. is the best way to go.
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

Jetblue opened their application window for one week a couple of months ago, here was the result:

Hiring Update...
 Application window was open for 10 days and there were close to 4000 applicants
 We are likely to select 300 pilots out of this window for interviews, including Bluedarts
 3700 met our minimums and over 2000 are exceptionally competitive
 Average experience is higher than in past application windows
 Competitive is over 5000 hours civilian or over 2000 hrs military fighter or 3500 military
transport/trainer
 More than half of applicants have JetBlue referrals, and 85% have bachelor’s degree. To
be competitive, referrals and a bachelor’s degree are almost a must
 Bluedarts must meet “satisfactory experience” criteria listed in the FOM 10.5, and over
3000 applicants meet that threshold
 2013 – We hired 269 pilots
 2014 - We have already hired close to 300 pilots so far this year, and are slated to hire
approximately 100 more (Aug-Dec). For a total of approximately 400
 2015 – Initial hiring forecasts (which are subject to change) is 250-350 pilots
 Upcoming class dates are 8/27, 9/10, 9/24, 10/15, 10/29, 11/12, 12/3
 We have approximately 100 pilots in the “pool” and all have passed phase 2. They
should all be in class by Dec (though hiring projections often change, so no guarantees)
 Upcoming interview dates are 9/16, 9/30, 10/16, 10/28, 11/6, 11/13
 Candidates interviewing this fall will be for classes in the first half of 2015
 Time from interview to phase 2 completion is approximately 2 months, and we now send
notifications to the candidates when they pass phase 2
 Time from interview to class is 3-6 months, but can be as fast as 30 days if necessary
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phil350
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by phil350 »

Stinky wrote:You'll need a 4 year Bachelors degree to get on with a major in the U.S.

It's pretty competitive down there right now, plenty of very qualified guys have been stuck at the regionals for many years logging left seat time. Hopefully as the hiring picks up things won't be so tough.

Tax wise I'm not sure if living in Canada and working in the U.S. is the best way to go.
Thanks Stinky, I've got the 4 year degree, and just shy of 3500 military transport/trainer, so hopefully I can skip to the majors (emphasis on hopefully). I hit everyone of Air Canada's hiring "desirables" (glass/heavy/transoceanic, aviation degree, etc) so methinks at least I have a shot. Good point, however, about the tax implications for working in the US, it might be not worth it...

I guess with what I've read about the negative pilot-corporate atmosphere and Rouge issues, perhaps Air Canada isn't the best option? I really don't know, would anyone flying for a Canadian airline want to work in the states (assuming the right to work)?
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

I'm going through the same thing. Similar situation as yours. I plan to go to the U.S as soon as I can find the right job.
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Panama Jack
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Panama Jack »

I am confused. . . why would anybody, with the right to live anywhere in Canada or the US that they would want to, chose to live in Toronto?
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phil350
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by phil350 »

Panama Jack wrote:I am confused. . . why would anybody, with the right to live anywhere in Canada or the US that they would want to, chose to live in Toronto?
Haha...for the wife, of course (although I don't mind Toronto). I keep telling myself it won't be permanent...
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fish4life
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by fish4life »

If you can get on with a legacy carrier in the states it would probably lead to much quicker career advancement. Take a look at the mandatory retirements coming down the road and you will see what I mean.
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flieger
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by flieger »

I currently live in Toronto and commute to the states where I fly an A320 for an A320/E-190 LCC. Citizenship(s) is not an issue, nor are the US and Canadian ATP's in my case. I've interviewed with and have successfully been PFO'd by airlines in both countries.... I speak fluent Boeing and Airbus, but I don't speak french or spanish.

Please consider these two topics:

One. Your commute. Chances are you will have an offline commute, such as I do. Your life will be more stressful. If you fly for a US carrier that serves Canada, it may be easier. Especially if they allow own company pilots to occupy the cockpit j/s on international flights and allowing you to have access to passenger loads to plan your commute. There is also the issues of the trans-border non-rev taxes. That will add up. So consider that cost. If you drive across the border, time crossing is a factor. Get the NEXUS or Global Entry.

I will have to get myself down to Buffalo occasionally if I can't get out of Toronto. That's a problem for me commuting on my airline, because I'm junior with my carrier having only eight years seniority. There are a vast number of more senior commuters local to that area. Despite several non-stop flights a day to my domicile, I often have to plan on a two-leg commute through JFK. Or offline through EWR. Fun times.

Two. Consider the income tax issue. You will be paying taxes in two countries. You're not double taxed, however you will be paying or making up the difference due to the US/Canada tax treaty. For me it's not too bad, but that's only because of the poor compensation package at my airline. If you get on with a legacy in the US, that will become a problem for you over time. Make sure that you get a tax accountant familiar with the treaty and the tax laws of both countries.

I hope this helps and best of luck.
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by SAR_YQQ »

phil350 wrote:Thanks Stinky, I've got the 4 year degree, and just shy of 3500 military transport/trainer, so hopefully I can skip to the majors
A USAF buddy of mine has 6,000+ hours all heavy time - no bites from the Majors. Down here the pool of qualified pilots is huge.
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phil350
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by phil350 »

Flieger, that is exactly what I've been looking for, thanks so much!

Follow up questions...I assume you're with B6 based on the description of the airline, but you can't get in the cockpit of an American carrier under CASS? I guess I don't know much about the system...how often are you bumped?

As for the money, do you have any plans to move or otherwise change your situation when you start getting paid more?

Thanks again for the response!
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Morning Phil:

I don't think AC / Rouge is nearly as bad as you've heard. Particularly since you already reside at the Master-Base your quality of life would be great. Driving to work beats the hell out of commuting.

What's that saying; "happy wife happy ...."

I would look at it this way, come to AC / Rouge and get qualified on the Airbus. Get to the left seat as quick as possible, if you don't like it, worse case you can take a China contract for 500K / Year or continue to apply South of the border.

Best thing that can wake-up these Airlines is a swinging door.

Cheers
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Teamflyer
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Teamflyer »

Similar situation, however I'm less experienced; therefore I'm at the regional level. It seems Canada would be the better option in terms of pay and QOL
I'm leaning towards Jazz/encore but wondering if I should consider the american carriers like envoy/endeavor and then make the move to major/LCC like B6 as soon as possible.
I have all the basic requirements in terms of ATPL FAA/TC and 4 year degree from a Canadian university.

Any pointers? thanks
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PROC_HDG
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by PROC_HDG »

Having looked very closely at the question of whether or not to take a job down south, what I would say is that if you have reliable gainful employment in Canada, don't go south of the border for anything less than a Major/National carrier. If you thought compensation at Canadian regionals was bad, take a look at the pay scales down south.

If you are what the legacies are looking for (4 year [or more] degree, prior military, multiple type ratings, jet time, jet pic, instructor, check airman, safety officer, management or union rep, etc etc etc etc etc) then you may stand a chance to get the golden ticket in the US. Take a look at this thread for a reality check on what it takes to get one of those jobs: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major ... hired.html

Long story short, unless you are prior military, you had better have 7000+ tt and many accomplishments/professional accolades that distinguish you from the rest of us. That said, with the amount of mandatory retirements at the big 3, and to a lesser extent Alaska, Southwest and FedEx, the above is in the process of changing, quickly, and I expect the average hire will have a lot less experience 5-10 years from now.

PROC_HDG
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

Teamflyer wrote:Similar situation, however I'm less experienced; therefore I'm at the regional level. It seems Canada would be the better option in terms of pay and QOL
I'm leaning towards Jazz/encore but wondering if I should consider the american carriers like envoy/endeavor and then make the move to major/LCC like B6 as soon as possible.
I have all the basic requirements in terms of ATPL FAA/TC and 4 year degree from a Canadian university.

Any pointers? thanks
Jazz and Encore pay low $30's now with a high tax rate.

Endeavor pays in the mid $40's U.S. for the first year with a lower tax rate. That takes into account their retention bonus.

At the regional level the pay rates are starting to go up in the U.S., In Canada things seem to be going the other way.
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Teamflyer
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Teamflyer »

Stinky wrote:
Teamflyer wrote:Similar situation, however I'm less experienced; therefore I'm at the regional level. It seems Canada would be the better option in terms of pay and QOL
I'm leaning towards Jazz/encore but wondering if I should consider the american carriers like envoy/endeavor and then make the move to major/LCC like B6 as soon as possible.
I have all the basic requirements in terms of ATPL FAA/TC and 4 year degree from a Canadian university.

Any pointers? thanks
Jazz and Encore pay low $30's now with a high tax rate.

Endeavor pays in the mid $40's U.S. for the first year with a lower tax rate. That takes into account their retention bonus.

At the regional level the pay rates are starting to go up in the U.S., In Canada things seem to be going the other way.
Hey Stinky, were you able to find an suitable opportunity in the states yet? You addressed exactly what I was considering.

How long would it take to flow to AC from Jazz, I assume upwards 8-10 years for someone starting today not on the PML list. PROC_HDG has a good point, but presumably most people have about 7000hrs after a decade in the airline industry, which makes Canada not all too different than the states.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems a bit surprising yet rightfully anticipated.
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

I put my job search on hold for a bit. I'm going to start looking hard this fall.

As far as Jazz and Encore goes, I get the feeling you'd be at the back of a very long line. It's hard to say how long upgrades will be. I think they still both have a lot of applications on file so getting a call is no guarantee either.

There might be some interesting opportunities in the U.S. with the possibility of signing bonuses, flow through, fast upgrades and empty ground schools. This is all info I gather from forums so take it for that.
I read PSA is upgrading guys within 6 months.

Good luck.
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PROC_HDG
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by PROC_HDG »

Not sure where you got your info stinky, but endeavor does NOT pay in the 40s. In fact they start in the low 20s and the fo pay scale tops out at 39/hour. See here: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... deavor_air

You are not going to find a regional in the US that pays a starting wage within $10000 of the lowest starting wage in Canada.

Also, the tax advantage at that income level in the US is basically nil. You will be paying about the same tax as in Canada. Remember too that you'll probably be paying multiple thousand dollars a year for private health care which the government provides for free in Canada. A friend I know at Skywest is paying over 1500/year out of pocket for health care on his 25000/year fo salary and that's WITH a company health plan.

PROC_HDG
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Stinky
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by Stinky »

Check the bottom of this link.

http://www.mesaba.com/pilots.html

Every pilot gets $20,000 a year on top of their pay until 2018.
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nottellin
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Re: Flying for a Canadian versus American airline

Post by nottellin »

Stinky wrote:Check the bottom of this link.

http://www.mesaba.com/pilots.html

Every pilot gets $20,000 a year on top of their pay until 2018.
It says UP TO $20,0000................. :?
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