New duty regs are out

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AuxBatOn
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by AuxBatOn »

Don’t forget that the rules are meant to address operational risks to the general population (not to pilots/crew). That’s why 702 is less restrictive than 703 and 703 is less restrictive than 704 and 704 is less restrictive than 705. The exposure of the population is progressively greater from 702 to 705. The effects of a catastrophic accident in a Medevac operation are fairly minimal when compared to the same catastrophic accident in an Airline operation. Therefore, the probability of a catastrophic accident happenning can be higher in a 702 operation and can still have the same level of risk as a 705 operation where the probability is minimized through more restrictive rules.
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digits_
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:28 am Don’t forget that the rules are meant to address operational risks to the general population (not to pilots/crew). That’s why 702 is less restrictive than 703 and 703 is less restrictive than 704 and 704 is less restrictive than 705. The exposure of the population is progressively greater from 702 to 705. The effects of a catastrophic accident in a Medevac operation are fairly minimal when compared to the same catastrophic accident in an Airline operation. Therefore, the probability of a catastrophic accident happenning can be higher in a 702 operation and can still have the same level of risk as a 705 operation where the probability is minimized through more restrictive rules.
Then they should have made special rules for 703 or 704, not specific medevac rules. Which makes you wonder what is so special about medevac. Until you start thinking a bit deeper, and you realize who the patients/passengers are on board the medevac planes vs the fancy charter planes on 703 or 704 operations which have better rules...
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fayuyang
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by fayuyang »

+1 Medevac pilots are machine, we can fly all day long so we can exempt from all regs :twisted:
nwopilot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:48 am I really hope I am incorrectly interpreting these new regs!! Apparently Medevac operators are basically exempt from all the new regs and can continue to go for 14hrs!?!?!?!?! HAHAHAH that is just silly. Out of all of the jobs I have had, I was the most fatigued while operating on a 24hr on-call medevac schedule. Why are they exempt?!?! Just hire some more damn pilots!!!
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Anthropomorphized
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Anthropomorphized »

How many management systems do we need really?

If the fatigue problem hasn't been addressed by SMS, how do they figure adding another 'system' on top of that is going to be beneficial in any way? I would say, if the operator can hide fatigue in their SMS program, I feel confident they'll be able to hide it in their FRMS program as well.
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fayuyang
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by fayuyang »

When we legalize cannabis in Canada it was enforced on the same date;
When it comes to new flight/duty time reg. that's related to public safety it takes 2-4 years until it's enforced.....sigh
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The Hammer
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by The Hammer »

Large 705 carrier have stated it will take 2 years to train enough pilots. Considering AC already has plans to hire 450 in 2019 this is fully believable for sim time alone.
Large airline's management has accepted the changes and will work with them so it's a reasonable tradeoff vs TC having AC/WJ lobbying hard politically against the changes.

As for medevac I'm think that because in many provinces and territories medevac flights are to isolated reserves with poor heath care facilities and long distances this would be a political hot potato.
They probably could have made an exemption for "limited access" sort of like they have for many DG items.

I can think of a few parts of this country that it would be tight to get a patient to a southern hospital on a single duty period if they started at the middle of the night. Usually wheels up is 60 minutes headed north before headed south with the nurse going in to the nursing station (25-30 minute drive each way in the winter) plus time to stabilize the patient which is usually the case if your getting a 0300 call. Not a skedevac. IMHO
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The Hammer
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by The Hammer »

5400AirportRdSouth wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:08 am Nothing would warm my cold dead heart more than seeing the SMS inboxes of every carrier attempting the FRMS end run to get filled with fatigue reports on Day One.

Thats all it would take to completely kill the FRMS bypass.

All it would take is for pilots to grow a set and stand up together against this BS...call it a national sleep-out.

I cant even decipher the FRMS section, lots of words and zero substance. The synergies and dynamics in the data collection, review and procedural collaboration between stakeholders, will allow us to maximize efficiencies.
You can complain about FRMS but it might work out for the pilots too, especially jobs that aren't particularly stressful. I'd rather work 10 day-time sked days in a row and go home for more time days off then work 6, sit in a bunkhouse for 36 hrs to meet the new regs to reset my clock, an then work another 6. It all depends on the job conditions and schedule.
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ehbuddy
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by ehbuddy »

It will just take an accident or another SFO incident and Trump will ban all Canadian Airlines flying into the States. Ban will be enforced until proper crew rest rules have been implemented.
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digits_
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

ehbuddy wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:00 am It will just take an accident or another SFO incident and Trump will ban all Canadian Airlines flying into the States. Ban will be enforced until proper crew rest rules have been implemented.
I was going to write that such a thing would be ridiculous, and then I realized that nowadays this is actually completely possible...
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Heliian
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Heliian »

Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
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av8ts
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by av8ts »

The Hammer wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:54 pm Large airline's management has accepted the changes and will work with them so it's a reasonable tradeoff vs TC having AC/WJ lobbying hard politically against the changes.
I don’t think they have accepted as much as it’s being forced on them. And it’s because of their hard lobbying that these rules didn’t come into effect years ago.
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groundpilot
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by groundpilot »

Heliian wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 am Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
The pilot occupation has been pushed around for years. 200 hrs pilots desperate for their first job. The 4000 hrs pilots desperate for a proper reference.

Management has always had the upper hand.

C'mon man. Give your head a shake
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yhz41
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by yhz41 »

Heliian wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 am Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
Something tells me you have never flown medevac.
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fish4life
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by fish4life »

yhz41 wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:34 am
Heliian wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 am Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
Something tells me you have never flown medevac.
I flew medevac and a simple “we are beat and not doing anymore trips tonight” was all it took
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Lightchop
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by Lightchop »

fish4life wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:02 am
yhz41 wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:34 am
Heliian wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 am Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
Something tells me you have never flown medevac.
I flew medevac and a simple “we are beat and not doing anymore trips tonight” was all it took
The rhetoric on here about how the poor 703/704 pilots are so hard done by is ridiculous. I flew 703 like most everyone else. It's not hard to turn down a trip, or say you're too tired. I did it multiple times and guess what!? I still kept my job and got a great reference from my boss when I left. Why? Because the rest of the time I worked my ass off and they knew that if I was saying I wasn't good to go then it was the truth.

If you work for a place that isn't like the company I was at, nothing will ever change if you don't say NO.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by goingnowherefast »

There are companies where the "yes boss" type pilots get upgraded, get pay raises, avoid layoffs, get references, aren't scape goats. The questions being asked are:
"I know you are at gross weight, do you mind taking this extra pax?"
"you can make it to tim-buck-too and back in 30 minutes on paper, right? the logbook is easy to fudge"
"ice is slippery, that little bit on your leading edge will make the plane fly faster, no need to waste fluid"
"You don't look that tired, this trip is worth a lot of money"

Remember that the rules are written for the shithole operators. I got "laid off" many moons ago because a contract wasn't going well. Somehow it was my fault and was a convenient scape goat. Most of the other pilots were the "yes boss" type. I was one of 3 who stood our ground, we were all gone within a year.

It set my career back at least 2 years.
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C.W.E.
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by C.W.E. »

It set my career back at least 2 years.
However you are still alive to build your career.
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digits_
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

fish4life wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:02 am
yhz41 wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:34 am
Heliian wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 am Medevac operators are not exempt but have a different threshold.

There are also provisions for on call and standby.

Its your company's job to sort it out and implement it, it's your responsibility to show up rested and to recognize fatigue.

You have the right to refuse work.
Something tells me you have never flown medevac.
I flew medevac and a simple “we are beat and not doing anymore trips tonight” was all it took
So that means that you never flew too tired? What if your breaking point happens during a 3 hour flight? You land and sleep in the terminal building?
I'm sure that a shift system like Ornge has, could work for the right person. But the rolling duty, 24/7 on call system that perimeter has for example, is just insane. You'd have to call fatigue on average every 2 days if you really want to avoid flying too tired. If that is something you can do, then great. Either that or you are a super human that never needs sleep.

I've seen a lot of medevac pilots fly way too fatigued, at different companies. It just isn't worth it. And it is mind boggling that this group gets more relaxed rules than the other pilot groups. They need it most.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
digits_
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by digits_ »

Lightchop wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:36 am

If you work for a place that isn't like the company I was at, nothing will ever change if you don't say NO.
And if you say NO, what will be the change? You'll be looking or be forced to look for another job, while paying off a bond. And then the next guy can do the same thing or fly unsafe.
A single pilot does not have the power to change anything at crappy operators. And if they weren't crappy operators, nothing should be changed anyways. It is a no win scenario.

And if you are so inclined, you apply at jazz or encore, and they want your direct supervisor for a reference check. Cool!
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
goingnowherefast
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Re: New duty regs are out

Post by goingnowherefast »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:46 pm
It set my career back at least 2 years.
However you are still alive to build your career.
Exactly, my only regret is not leaving sooner.

My point being this type of operator needs to be heavily regulated. They find creative ways to get rid of pilots that don't bow to their desires. There are too many operators like this in Canada, thus the need for the new duty regs.
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