Landing fee at CYOS

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

The library comparison is just ridiculous.

Why? It's at the core of the issue.

Why does an airport need to make money, but a library doesn't?

Because an airport at least can make money, or at least break even (e.g. Brampton - which has no landing fees for private piston singles/light twins), and not become a tax burden. If its continued existence is not supported by local taxpayers, as seems to be the case with CYOS, then it needs to at least break even. This is impossible for a library.

That being said though, airports don't need to make money, if the local taxpayers are willing to support it.

[photofly]

This is impossible for a library.

Absolutely a library can make money. They can charge for membership, charge for borrowing books, and charge for a whole load of other services. This private library has been running since 1841, without public funds: https://www.londonlibrary.co.uk/

[digits_]

How would CYOS charge the landing fees? Will they employ someone full time to get all the billing info from visiting aircraft?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

This is impossible for a library.

Absolutely a library can make money. They can charge for membership, charge for borrowing books, and charge for a whole load of other services. This private library has been running since 1841, without public funds: https://www.londonlibrary.co.uk/

Okay, granted. This is a poor example though as they charge around $800CDN for a yearly membership. It's a private library, not a public library. I doubt one could open such a library in Owen Sound. It's somewhat the same as charging landing fees at a private, restricted airport. I would also argue this is quite a rare example, and I would argue that a public library, as a rule, cannot make money, so public libraries are still a bad comparison to a municipal airport which absolutely can make money.

Cool library, though!

[photofly]

How would CYOS charge the landing fees? Will they employ someone full time to get all the billing info from visiting aircraft?

Although the airport has a full time manager, I doubt they have thought about:

1. Out of hours arrivals and departures going undetected
2. The cost of creating a post-hoc billing infrastructure (presumably they'll mail an account to the registered address, if the pilot doesn't pay at the time)
3. The cost of chasing delinquent operators
4. The reduction in visitors due to the landing fee, along with the loss in revenue from gasoline sales

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far. But I think it's unlikely anyone is going to be tempted to try again if there's a $35 surcharge on fly-ins for burger and chips.

[fish4life]

I wonder if they took into account the loss of revenue and tax base when the flight school goes somewhere else

[photofly]

Apparently they’re not planning to charge the flight school.

[rookiepilot]

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far.

There you go. Telling.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far. But I think it's unlikely anyone is going to be tempted to try again if there's a $35 surcharge on fly-ins for burger and chips.

They could also waive the landing fee if you're dining at the theoretical new restaurant. The same applies for fuel at many airports.

Generally though I think this is a bad idea, and this isn't an aviation opinion. It is always a bad idea to react to a reduction in demand for your product, and therefore reduced revenue, by raising prices. It very quickly starts a death spiral. This is covered in Business 101.

(Admittedly, with the rare exception of trying to rebrand yourself as a "premium" product or service.)

[rookiepilot]

I think too many in our society want everything want everything for free -- or someone else to pay. And a massive debt problem is the result.

I've paid many landing fees in my time.

You Use it, you pay for it.

Lower income taxes.

More user fees. Higher sales taxes, too.

A library, serving the poorest in society in their children's learning efforts, can't be compared with an airport serving the richest.

If you own an airplane, any airplane, trust me, you're rich.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I think too many in our society want everything want everything for free -- or someone else to pay. And a massive debt problem is the result.

I've paid many landing fees in my time.

You Use it, you pay for it.

Lower income taxes.

More user fees. Higher sales taxes, too.

A library, serving the poorest in society in their children's learning efforts, can't be compared with an airport serving the richest.

If you own an airplane, any airplane, trust me, you're rich.

I don't think that's the whole argument. Part of the argument is that because a municipal airport is a collective benefit, it should be collectively paid for. The other part of this argument, methinks, is that it's a pretty steep landing fee that will likely result in the demise of the airport. Landing at CYTZ in a small piston costs less than half what CYOW is proposing. Landing at Brampton, Orillia Rama, or Muskoka costs nothing in the same aircraft. They're setting themselves up for failure.

[rookiepilot]

I think too many in our society want everything want everything for free -- or someone else to pay. And a massive debt problem is the result.

I've paid many landing fees in my time.

You Use it, you pay for it.

Lower income taxes.

More user fees. Higher sales taxes, too.

A library, serving the poorest in society in their children's learning efforts, can't be compared with an airport serving the richest.

If you own an airplane, any airplane, trust me, you're rich.

I don't think that's the whole argument. Part of the argument is that because a municipal airport is a collective benefit, it should be collectively paid for. The other part of this argument, methinks, is that it's a pretty steep landing fee that will likely result in the demise of the airport. Landing at CYTZ in a small piston costs less than half what CYOW is proposing. Landing at Brampton, Orillia Rama, or Muskoka costs nothing in the same aircraft. They're setting themselves up for failure.

Maybe the town is broke. What should they do?

Not everything is viable, with alternative airports close by.

[photofly]

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far.

There you go. Telling.

Yes. And what it tells me is that the municipality should be concerned to make the airport more attractive to visitors, not less.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I don't think that's the whole argument. Part of the argument is that because a municipal airport is a collective benefit, it should be collectively paid for. The other part of this argument, methinks, is that it's a pretty steep landing fee that will likely result in the demise of the airport. Landing at CYTZ in a small piston costs less than half what CYOW is proposing. Landing at Brampton, Orillia Rama, or Muskoka costs nothing in the same aircraft. They're setting themselves up for failure.

Maybe the town is broke. What should they do?

Fish or cut bait.

Either find a way to make the airport sustainable, or admit that it can't be. Not this half-assed plan that tries to please everyone but helps no one.

[JasonE]

The library comparison is just ridiculous.

I thought it was fair. I fall into the same category, don't use many of the local services my taxes pay for but should we consider cutting them? I think not.

[rookiepilot]

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far.

There you go. Telling.

Yes. And what it tells me is that the municipality should be concerned to make the airport more attractive to visitors, not less.

They "should". Who is "they?

Why don't you offer to go up and help. Volunteer, Photofly. It'd do you good.

I've done a ton of volunteer work.

[rookiepilot]

The library comparison is just ridiculous.

I thought it was fair. I fall into the same category, don't use many of the local services my taxes pay for but should we consider cutting them? I think not.

No, it isn't.

One primarily serves a small group of rich airplane owners. Medivacs aren't even needed in Owen sound, there are 2 other nearby airports, and orange uses choppers in the south, anyway.

One serves an entire community using the library as an educational resource for everyone, and especially every child, in the community.

Give your heads a shake, all.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

[digits_]

One primarily serves a small group of rich airplane owners.

I should inform my bank I'm rich. And my wife.

There is a big spectrum of wealth between being poor and being rich. A lot of people earn more than me, but have other priorities for their money, as is their right. Owning an airplane doesn't make you rich, and reinforcing that stereotype doesn't do aviation any good. It would be one thing if it were true, but it isn't.

Medivacs aren't even needed in Owen sound, there are 2 other nearby airports, and orange uses choppers in the south, anyway.

Ah, I see. They don't need an airport, because there are other airports. Right.

Reminds me of some of my ex colleagues who were proud they didn't own a car because cars are evil and unnecessary. But if they really needed it, their friends gave them rides. In their evil cars.

[photofly]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

[rookiepilot]

Owning an airplane doesn't make you rich, and reinforcing that stereotype doesn't do aviation any good. It would be one thing if it were true, but it isn't.

Dude, I'm not in anyone's echo chamber. Or cheerleading squad.

Looking for that, look elsewhere. Or anywhere, since critical thinking is a lost art.

If you own an airplane and think you're poor, you probably don't have a clue about what poor means.

[rookiepilot]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

Oh, I'm not clamouring to shut anything down. Don't put words in my mouth.


But -- Is this site only a COPA lobbying arm?

Sorry. I don't do that. See last post.

Airports are great but the library comparison.... is ridiculous.

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

[photofly]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

Is this site only a COPA lobbying arm?

Sorry. I don't do that. See last post.

Airports are great but the library comparison is ridiculous.

This sounds a lot like the Bombardier threads. Look how that turned out.

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

I really don't think the "hard business ass pilot" shtick suits you.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

I really don't think the "hard business ass pilot" shtick suits you.

Rookie does have a valid point.

[anofly]

anyone want a history lesson about how we got to where we are in general wrt "regional or smaller airports?" in Ontario ?

In the good old 1970's, and early 80s' almost all the towns that you know that now have 3500-4000 foot paved runways had grass, or if they were busy dirt!! strips.. the grass was worn off the busy ones!!!

There was a policy in Ontario govt to make a regional and municipal airport system .

Many of these grass strips had small flight schools and or flying clubs

Govt money, provincial and federal, came along to pay appx 80% of the paved runway portion of an upgrade. Note runway only.
Ramps etc were local responsibility.

many airports were built under this program. YOS YHS YKM YCC , ND4,Nk4, and on and on.

Shortly after completing these runways there was another program , if the airports built a terminal and hired a full time manager, the prov govt would pay 80% of any shortage in operating money, if the airport "lost money", of course they all got terminals and managers...

Just like many provincial hiways the provincial govt eventually dropped the cash infusions to help keep airports afloat.
The feds have also downloaded a bunch of "regional or secondary airports" to municipalities that are having a hard time keeping them afloat.
so now instead of what were often quite busy grass strips, with a flight school, an active volunteer base, and with no "manager" per se and no terminals,
we have sometimes rather sleepy airports with empty terminals, paid managers and no active volunteer base.
What we are all fighting about now is who is going to pay, and how much.

user pay is an easy sell for a municipal council, but the only way user pay works is if everything is user pay, not just a few selected things.
my time on the ice rink , ball diamonds, and sending kids to public schools is over, but I am sure I am still paying for them. I am not at the library much.
Sadly my time in the municipal park sitting on the benches, and walking the sidewalks regularly is coming....and maybe the boat launch LOL
In the meantime I will be using the airports...

[rookiepilot]

GA is shrinking, too, for many, many years. That's reality.

Blame whatever floats your boat for that trend.

Small, not busy airports are going the way of small, not busy enough businesses.

It's very sad, actually. There isn't enough money for everything.

Inflation in many, many products and services is vastly understated, pushing people out of these activities as costs go higher and higher.