RCMP DH2T Accident

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rum-runner
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RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by rum-runner »

It would appear that someone did not heed the "Cat's" mantra.
"where am I landing, where is my gear"
I bet this pilot has had more damn CRM/PDM/Safety type courses than the average pilot and
"shit still happens"

Record #27Cadors Number: 2008P1731 Reporting Region: Pacific

Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2008/09/14
Occurrence Time: 0100 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 3

Canadian Aerodrome ID: Aerodrome Name:
Occurrence Location: Level Lake - 50 NM West of Dease Lake Province: British Columbia
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 99431-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 5 TSB Occurrence No.: A08P0299
Event InformationOther operational incident
Nose over
Collision with terrain
Aircraft InformationFlight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: DEHAVILLAND - CAN Model: DHC 2 MKIII
Year Built: 1959 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: PRATT & WHITNEY-CAN Engine Model: PT6A-34
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type:
Phase of Flight: Landing Damage: Unknown
Owner: GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE Operator: RCMP AIR SERVICES BRANCH (7048)
Operator Type: State

Detail InformationUser Name: Samson, Donna
Date: 2008/09/16
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: The pilot of the Government of Canada, RCMP Dehavilland DH2T, VFR Dease Lake to Level Lake, had phoned the Flight Information Centre to close the flight plan and advised that the aircraft had crashed on Level Lake. System Safety was advised the aircraft flipped over on landing on Level Lake. The 3 persons on board escaped without injuries and were picked up by a Pacific Western Helicopter.

User Name: Samson, Donna
Date: 2008/09/16
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: UPDATE from RCC Victoria: RCMP Dehavilland DHC2 MKIII crash (58270N 1314552W - Level Lake). Whitehorse Flight Information Centre reported a crash 50 NM West of Dease Lake. No assistance was required. The persons on board were already extracted by helo and taken to Dease Lake.

User Name: Samson, Donna
Date: 2008/09/16
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: UPDATE / Add Info from TSB: A08P0299: A De Havilland DHC-2T (Turbo Beaver) on amphibious floats, operated by the Government of Canada RCMP, departed the runway at Dease Lake with 3 persons on board for an inspection patrol. The first landing was at Level Lake where the aircraft nosed-over during the landing. All three occupants exited the aircraft and sustained minor injuries. The landing gear was subsequently observed to be in the extended position.
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Colibri
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Colibri »

Ouch...
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by . ._ »

Glad everyone's OK.

-istp
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

With all due respect to the crew of this CADOR.

When flying an amphibian the most important issue before any landing is you must have the gear selection correct for the surface you are landing on...

.....if you always ask yourself this question and answer it ....every time you turn final for a landing you will never land with the gear selection wrong.

" Where am I landing and where is my gear "
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by husky »

Wow, and that turbo beaver was HOW OLD? 1 year?

They fly around up there checking hunting licenses during hunting season...real good use of our tax dollars...
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Troubleshot »

husky wrote:Wow, and that turbo beaver was HOW OLD? 1 year?

They fly around up there checking hunting licenses during hunting season...real good use of our tax dollars...
Don't hi-jack the thread with police hater nonsence, although you did beat cpl_atc to it.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by niss »

I heard that they tazed the PW helicopter pilot.

Wocka Wocka Wocka

Image
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by xsbank »

I dunno, it just seems too silly to land an amphibian on the water, gear down. That means he flew all the way from Deas with the gear DOWN! Was his passenger a cutey? Was the little head flying?

I mean, what else is there to worry about flying a Beaver? Fuel, yep. Flaps, set. Trim, uh-huh. Engine gauges? Yep, she's still running. Oh right, water rudders..... up. What else could there possibly be? Gear? Do we have any? Oh right, we took off of the runway and it rolled really easily, must be some wheels down there, or maybe its just slippery?

GUMPF!

Go ahead, make soothing noises about how it could happen to anyone, how we are all vulnerable to human foibles - twaddle. There seems to be a need for a Dork-Corner. We've got the Avcanada Wall, how about the Dork-Section? Doofus-Centre? Darwin-something? Maybe we should be subtle and call it the Beagle-Bin?
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by crazyaviator »

Hmmm, For a few bucks, the government ( read taxpayer ) could outfit ALL amphibs in the government air services with lake and air gear warning systems AND ANR headsets and require ALL pilots to use them ,,,would be LESS expensive than just 1 accident me thinks ,,,oh well, we need a few deaths first ,then wisdom will come out of its hiding hole and be put into effect . Remember government has unlimited $$$$ its your and my pockets !

There was a day in the past when government employees were called "public servants" NOT anymore, now we could call them public thieves and their bosses Liars and abusers ( politicians) !!!
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by North Shore »

now we could call them public thieves and their bosses Liars and abusers ( politicians) !!!
Easy, pal! I take a little umbrage at that remark - I fly for a government agency, and when it comes to spending the taxpayers' money in the course of my employment, I'm even stingier than if it were my own (which, indirectly, I guess that it is.)
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Hmmm, For a few bucks, the government ( read taxpayer ) could outfit ALL amphibs in the government air services with lake and air gear warning systems
Why spend all that money when a simple quick check of the gear position will prevent landing with the gear in the wrong position?

Where do you draw the line on having the machine do the thinking?
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by xsbank »

"Where do you draw the line on having the machine do the thinking?"

I dunno, ., but some more brainpower of any kind might have been useful as there doesn't seem to have been much of it in that plane!
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by stef »

Actually XS, intelligent people can make mistakes too. Accidents like this should be a reminder to us all that this can happen to anyone.

Not sure of your aim here. Trying to kick a guy when he's down? You should try a little harder not to be an asshole.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by fogghorn »

Does anyone happen to know if the pilots initials are L.S.? Call me curious.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by xsbank »

fogghorn, if we called YOU curious, what would we call curious?
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by sportingrifle »

My broken record like rant...again.

While it is most probable that for whatever reason, the guy (or gal) flying somehow forgot that the gear was down, the accident could have been caused by any number of other issue or issues. Simple example: A guy I know drowned after landing in the water with the wheels down. It turns out that the gear was selected up, but a hydraulic leak caused the gear to partially deploy.

Even if the guy did do something "at the far left edge of the performance bell curve", there are probably a lot of contributing factors that could put the accident into a "there but the Grace of God go I" category. How long a day had the guy worked? What other pressures was the guy dealing with that he perhaps shouldn't have been? Let's face it - the RCMP Air Division's management style is not exactly CRM, SMS, or whatever is currently in vogue. Hell, it probably isn't even on par with my old ag/bush/tanker management from the "bad old days!" (I make this somewhat inflamitory comment based on discussions with one good friend who currently flies for the RCMP, and one who used to.)

So, as usual I think I'll wait for the investigation to finish up before I pass judgement on this one. Bent tin is easily replaced , creating widows and orphans really sucks and lasts far longer than the memory of the bent tin.

Cheers sportingrifle
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by angry inch »

I agree, Sport..

Also, how many here giving their critique fly amphibs?? (besides Cat) It's a little different than a regular RG airplane.

A goddamn shame none the less...
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Conquest Driver »

Here's one quick amphib strategy.

You take off from land, you retract the gear. Just like you would on a regular airplane. Plus it makes the Amphib fly better, there's no downside here.

Now if you're going to make a mistake which would you prefer? Gear up on land, or gear down on water? Me, I'll take the gear up.

So, if you're going to land on water you don't have to do anything. If you're going to land on land, all you have to do is what all of us land pilots do all the time anyway.

To mess up real bad, you have to select gear down on base or final to the water. That means moving the gear selector from the correct (up) position to the incorrect (down) position. This requires the maximum possible creativity.

Not trying to knock Cat's mantra here, it's still the best way, but people have been landing amphibs misconfigured for years. This just gives them one more chance to trade a potentially fatal accident for an "aw shit" as they yank the control column into their stomachs and grind to a halt.

PS

Taking "potshots" at a pilot just because he flys for the RCMP is wrong. This sort of thing had happened over and over to all kinds of pilots.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by polar one »

I still find it hard to understand how so many people, will,without knowing all the facts, flame the pilot, or ponitificate on how to do it better.

So, to the pilot, if you read this. I have made mistakes in my career. Been just plain (plane?) lucky that it never resulted in any bent metal. I am sure your day was bad enough without having to read the posts from the sanctamonious jerks here who never make mistakes and know everything.

Take care buddy. There is another day.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by crazyaviator »

There is an INCREDIBLY high rate of accidents caused by amphib pilots landing with the gear down on water , its a wonder why insurance companies still insure amphibs !! As for Cats reply, it is known in the realm of human existance that human are not perfect robots ! Humans forget , even forget to use checklists and yes , there are some men that even make mistakes ! REALLY lol. A gear warning system is designed for such eventualities and for less than perfect pilots !!
Like me.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by xsbank »

I just don't understand why the gear/accident rate is so high for amphibians and its also very high for Aero Commanders. Why?

I just don't understand why the gear/accident rate is so high. I can't believe that there are so many distractions in flying an amphib that there should be so many accidents, especially when landing on water. There are so many examples of wheels-down-flip-it-over amphib landings - there is even a dandy where everyone was watching/filming on UTube.

I ridiculed this incident because it is only bent metal. Nobody was hurt. Bent metal is a shame but its just junk. It seems to me that the old outfit in Port Hardy ran amphibs for years and they weren't flipping over right and left, although in that time TC did one in Vancouver.

Yes, everybody makes mistakes, but this one is a particularly dumb one that is particularly dangerous and it seems to be repeating itself over and over and there just doesn't seem to be a good reason. I over-reacted last night out of frustration - we should NEVER have to hear of another amphib-in-the-water accident - thankfully no one was hurt in this one.

Like I said before - GUMPF (for those of you who haven't figured this out: gas gauges undercarriage also water rudders mixture mags pumps props flaps) or for those of you who don't have mags etc. GUPF: gas gauges undercarriage (w.r.) pumps props flaps).
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by niss »

Anyone ever accidentally pull the mixture on their downwind check instead of the carb heat?
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Part of the problem lies in doing things by rote

We tend to fall into doing things the same way and the habits become ingrained the longer we do it.

Amphibians bite pilots due to the fact that most pilots develop habits on either straight land planes especially those with retractable gear or float plane pilots that have spent years flying floats.

Thus when they get checked out on an amphibian...or check themselves out which is a recipe for disaster they will on occasion just plain revert to rote flying habits and either extend the gear to land or forget they have the gear there at all because of all the float flying they did in the past.

Maybe there should be a separate rating for amphibians so as to burn in the new habits that will reinforce the fact that these things can kill you if you land them in the water with the gear down.

I am really surprised that the insurance companies do not require a new amphibian pilot to have xx hours training from someone they approve as a training facility that knows how to teach people to fly amphibians......but eventually they will because there are just to many pay outs for this type of preventable accident.

Bottom line is the industry knows that there are way, way to many pilots wrecking perfectly serviceable airplanes and sometimes killing people by landing in the water gear down.

So, as far as I am concerned the time for hang wringing and saying there but for the grace of God go I is long past because sometimes that is followed by he died doing what he loved to do....and that is pure B.S.

So there you go gang have at me.
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Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth on Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by xsbank »

Niss old son, feeeel the knobs - they are all different. Some are lumpy, some are wrinkled, some are hang on, I'm talking about AIRCRAFT CONTROLS here. ONLY AIRCRAFT CONTROLS sheesh.
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Re: RCMP DH2T Accident

Post by phillyfan »

In the past 12 months with my employer i've been jumping from a C-185 on straight wheels, wheel/skis and Floats, C-206 on Wheels and floats, a C-210 retractable, a Beaver on wheels, wheel/skis or straight floats and a Turbo Otter on wheel/skis and amphib floats.
I spend a great deal of my time thinking about the position of the skis and wheels. On a caribou hunt we spent a couple hours flying around searching for caribou. When we finally found them, in the rush to get down and put the hunters in position, I landed the Beaver with the skis up on snow. (The only difference in this case was that it stopped real fast). It did however show me that mistakes can be made. I verbally confirm my gear position to myself whether i'm in a plane on straight floats, fixed gear, retractable, wheel/skis or amphibs. I know my passengers think I look like an idiot talking to myself about the position of my wheels on a straight floatplane sometimes but I figure i'll look like a bigger idiot if we have to swim to shore together.
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