Canadian pilot association

[hawkerdriver]

That doesn't sound bad?

Howcome the doctor,nurse ,plomber,electrician lawer,notary,trucker,iron walker,all the gov worker,police ,fire fighter,name it have an association ,and us? What we have ?Are we professional?

Make it clear i am not here to built something to kick companies asses or TC asses,just to have an association who recongnize who we are and help the one who need it.I don't want give a part of my paid to somebody who sit in a chair all the day.Couple of years a go ,had a friend who died and it was not easy financialy ,if we can put 10$ a week in this association maybe it could help for the first weeks.A guys who's lost his job can make a loan or something like that to help him for acouple of month.

I now lot of guy gonna join the association in the minding of hey my companie gonna do that and that and pay me xx you are wrong.The thing i start here it is to help pilot and is familly and to protect the pilot rights,not to protect you again a training bound(hey you sign it honour it).

Maybe help a guy who just lost is medical at the last check (who's prepare for that).

Maybe aprox 15000 pilot times 10$/week=150000$ even 5$ is ok we can hire WIDOW have 100% trust in her.I am not the one who can do that,probably someone here is willing and know how to make it happen.Be aware you gonna need more then one recommandation if you gonna play with the money (5 at least) and a solid reputation.Maybe i am to paranoiac but be safer then sorry.Give me you're 0.02cents.

[Fly4Fun]

It’s already being seriously considered.
Check out the future site of the "The College of Professional Pilots of Canada"

www.collegeofpilots.ca

I believe the major airline associations in Canada are banding together to spear head this professional college.
It’s long overdue, and it won't happen overnight, but it’s a beginning.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

ok we can hire WIDOW have 100% trust in her.

Few here would argue against that.

[hawkerdriver]

It is serious give you're 2 cents

[Four1oh]

I'll believe it when I see it, but I'd sign up if it happened. I just have a hard time believing us yahoos could actually come together and have an all-encompassing system for all Canadian pilots.

[hawkerdriver]

Doesn't mathers if it take 10 years it will happen thats the thing........

[KAG]

I'm in.

[185_guy]

Great idea, but for now.....

http://www.copanational.org/

[CAL]

Hey budy long time!
Hope all is well....

[bmc]

What is the need that is being unmet? What role would such an association play?

Put some objectives down.

Represent all pilots? Airline, banner towing, gliders, private?

Promote safety?

Share best practices?

Work with TC to develop better ways of doing things?

Offer training or promote training?


Get real clear about the need for such an association and what you would need it to do for you that is not being done today. You need to do that as a first step.

[CAL]

A massive union that represents all Canadian pilots.
It will set salary standards across the industry and design all the collective agreements with each company.

[Johnny767]

The concept, at the moment, in NOT a union. For the members that do belong to a union, A/C (ACPA) Jazz (ALPA,) there will be no change.

One of the driving issues is licensing, as the MOT wants out. The college is hoping to take on control of Pilot Licensing and Professional standards.

Not unlike the Chartered Accountants and Lawyers.

[bmc]

Interesting.

Are they looking to FAA/JAR standards? Working with ICAO?

Standards are good. Enforcement and application could be done by audit, not unlike the IATA IOSA safetly audit.

Good for them. I hope it comes to fruition.

[jamesbay]

Have to start somewhere, it's over-due.

[x-wind]

Who wants to do what?

Someone else take care of pilot standards and licensing?... It could raise the bar a bit, keep a couple of the loose canons/lazy morons from getting a license and therefore attain/demand a little more respect from employers.

Perhaps more than a "sampling" or "snapshot" of a pilots skills, for a commercial license would be good.

Only the strong shall survive.

[Widow]

It’s already being seriously considered.
Check out the future site of the "The College of Professional Pilots of Canada"

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

I believe the major airline associations in Canada are banding together to spear head this professional college.
It’s long overdue, and it won't happen overnight, but it’s a beginning.

Is this the same association that freakonature told us about in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=47755 ?

we can hire WIDOW have 100% trust in her

I'm looking for a job

[Johnny767]

I would hire you, in a heart-beat Widow!

[valvelifter]

I am not trying to shoot down this idea but please ask yourselves the following questions before coming to a conclusion:

1. Are you willing to pay HUNDREDS of dollars a year to be part of this professional association?
2. Are you ready to deal with another association and it's bureaucratic methods, red tape, etc..?
3. If it's a professional association that is recognized by the law, then you cannot work as a professional without being a member. You also would not be allowed to call yourself a pilot if you are not a member. So therefore you have to pay up, or work illegally.

There are just a couple of issues that arise when being part of a professional association. I am not saying they are useless. On the contrary. But I just don't want us to shoot ourselves in the foot. We may not be improving anything, or at least fixing some problems at the expense of creating others we can complain about later.

[Johnny767]

Fair questions, but, ask yourself this;

Transport Canada wants out of Licensing, who do you want to handle that on our behalf, an organization of employers?

In my opinion the best thing that can happen, is forced membership of a self governing association. I highly doubt the dues will be high, likely varied levels of membership, Commercial, ATP etc.

Although it is not a Union, in the industrial sense. It may have reaching powers to end things like, "Pay For Training."

[Widow]

If it is indeed based on the idea proferred before the Standing Committee by Mr. Paul Carson ... http://questforjustice.spaces.live.com/ ... !164.entry

... any idea how to get in touch with those involved in its inception?

[Johnny767]

We had this chat a while back, unfortunately I still do not have any more details. I do know the names of the Air Canada Pilots involved.

Did you try calling ACPA Headquarters?

http://www.acpa.ca/

[StudentPilot]

Transport Canada wants out of Licensing, who do you want to handle that on our behalf, an organization of employers?

Is TC going to downsize when they stop dealing with licensing issues (and not cut the front line staff while management keeps their jobs)? Will we now get to pay this association dues and licensing fees, and also pay TC $55 (in addition to the medical fees) for more "paperwork"? It must be nice to be able to decide you don't want to do all of your job and try to that part of your job away.

I believe the major airline associations in Canada are banding together to spear head this professional college.

Major airline associations...will they keep in mind a lot of pilot's aren't/don't want to be working for an airline? Will they be fair to the little guys (outfitters, fishing lodges, aerial application, 703 VFR charter ops, etc) and their pilots or will there be bias towards 704/705 ops? It could work, but there are lots of questions that should be dealt with first.

[Widow]

I think if the association is being based around Mr. Carson's presentation, many of the concerns expressed here have been accommodated.

Pilots need a nationwide self-governing, self-regulating professional association to which all professional pilots--and I mean those flying for hire or reward--must belong. In view of the changes presently occurring in the aviation industry with the introduction of SMS--a form of what I like to call “supervised” self-government and self-regulation for the air operator industry--they need it to provide a pilot input to balance company management, government regulators, and clients in the dynamic bargaining process that determines the industry environment. They need it to provide them with real whistle-blowing protection, since they will be the ones under SMS who really know what will be going on in the future, in my opinion. They need it to set standards for technical education required for the various types of aviation jobs, from entry-level commercial pilot to captain of high-performance passenger-carrying jet. They need it to ensure they receive the proper ongoing education to enable them to do each job with confidence and competence as they progress through their careers. Ethics will be taught and examined.

When I first wrote this paper, I talked only about pilots, since I am a pilot, but I would now extend the same concept to licensed maintenance engineers and certificated dispatchers. Also, for the record, I sent my ideas twice through TCCA's issues reporting system, and then in the form of a discussion paper to my current director and to the association to which I belong. So I have tried to communicate with a number of people.

What is missing from SMS is a check and balance system, in my opinion. It is one thing to give supervised self-government and self-regulation to an air operator, to the management, and the owners of a company, but it is an oversight not to give the same thing to the licensed pilots, maintenance engineers, and dispatchers who do the work. For example, without the licensed pilots employed by the company, the company cannot operate. These licensed individuals need their own self-governing, self-regulating association that will provide them the protection they very much need from any unscrupulous employer on those occasions when an employee feels the need to blow the whistle on the company for safety violations. We've had incidents of this in the past, recently in Toronto. This body needs to be the licensing authority for these individuals, not the governing authority, in my opinion.

<snip>

I dealt at length with knowledge and licensing as a responsibility of the proposed professional pilots association, because I feel it is the foundation upon which any claim to professionalism must be made. That's essential. However, besides knowledge and licensing, the professional pilots association would take responsibility for representing pilots and providing specialist assistance—say, in accident investigation—and for encouraging and even sponsoring research into airframe, engine, and system design, and into the civic aspects of aviation personnel management and interpersonal behaviour, something that today we call the human factors.

Another important function would be presenting the pilots' point of view as a group on proposed legislative changes, as part of the consultation process with industry owners and operators. Company management is judged by whether they show a profit at the end of the year. While pilots are by no means immune to the profit motive, they are also aware that the high salaries they may earn mean little when you arrive first at the scene of an accident.

[rd1331]

I am not trying to shoot down this idea but please ask yourselves the following questions before coming to a conclusion:

1. Are you willing to pay HUNDREDS of dollars a year to be part of this professional association?
2. Are you ready to deal with another association and it's bureaucratic methods, red tape, etc..?
3. If it's a professional association that is recognized by the law, then you cannot work as a professional without being a member. You also would not be allowed to call yourself a pilot if you are not a member. So therefore you have to pay up, or work illegally.

There are just a couple of issues that arise when being part of a professional association. I am not saying they are useless. On the contrary. But I just don't want us to shoot ourselves in the foot. We may not be improving anything, or at least fixing some problems at the expense of creating others we can complain about later.

It is NOT going to be a union, TC wants to get out of a lot of things to do with aviation. Is it better to have another corporation that knows nothing take this over, or is it better to have an association of pilots take it over.

It is not going to be an overnight thing. Concerns will come up, and I'm sure they will deal with them in the best manner they can. It is going to take a couple years, which leaves lots of time to get these questions answered. There may be a possibility of getting things like loss of medical insurance and such out of such a big association which we are unable to get in Canada, I don't know but i'm hoping this would be possible.

This will be a good thing, it will take time, and issues will come up.

[Northern Skies]

If it is an efficient, effective organization which supports pilots and their ultimate authority in safety, and moves to end the pay-to-train and buy a ppc mentality, I wholeheartedly support it.

If it has any hint of becoming a political bureaucracy with corruption and red tape, I OPPOSE it.

Also, I would not join a union.