Lake or Trees?

[pilotman15]

Hi all,

Just wondering what the opinion is about landing a wheeled fixed gear single-engined aircraft. In an event where a forced approach is required in Northern country, would one end up in better shape by trying to put it down on the canopy of trees or attempt to put it down on a lake? Also keeping in mind ELT capabilities and survival gear access.

Scenario could be seen as flying a 172 or Cherokee at 6500 in Northern Ontario during summer and the engine quits...plan to ditch in the water or go for the trees?

[Jastapilot]

depends on the trees. If we're talking 80' pines, I'd take the lake. A stand of young trees with relatively smaller trunks on the other hand, probably the trees.

[tiny]

Depends on the temp. Ice makes a good runway. Frozen poplers will make a mess of an airplane.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Where are you going to find trees in the northern country?

[pilotman15]

Where are you going to find trees in the northern country?

Sorry .,

By Northern country I meant North of 45 degrees but South of the tree line.

Depends on the temp. Ice makes a good runway. Frozen poplers will make a mess of an airplane.

I agree! But assume summer.

The reason I've asked this is that I hear different responses from different instructors, and am not entirely sure what I would currently do if I had an engine failure and had to make the choice.

[yfly]

There are a lot of variables but as posted, it depends on the type of trees, condition of lake, fixed gear or retractable, probable waterline relative to your planned exit door. Small trees, I will take every time. I am a lousy swimmer. If people on the ground are probable, then the water avoids placing risk on those not assuming it.

[Just another canuck]

Where are you going to find trees in the northern country?

The poll north of the tree line will be lake or rock.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The reason I've asked this is that I hear different responses from different instructors, and am not entirely sure what I would currently do if I had an engine failure and had to make the choice.

You are asking instructors for advice on something as important to know as this subject?

The first question you should get answered is do said instructors actually have the experience to be able to make a well thought out answer to your question or are they from the regular puppy mill pool?

Let me help you out here, there is no clear one answer fits all that would cover all the possible situations when making the decision to land in the water or the trees as there are just to many variables to give a clear answer to your question.

[pilotman15]

The poll north of the tree line will be lake or rock.

lol

Quote:
The reason I've asked this is that I hear different responses from different instructors, and am not entirely sure what I would currently do if I had an engine failure and had to make the choice.


You are asking instructors for advice on something as important to know as this subject?

The first question you should get answered is do said instructors actually have the experience to be able to make a well thought out answer to your question or are they from the regular puppy mill pool?

All instructors received all of their training, and pretty well have all of their time in the indicated area. I also agree that there is no one answer to the question and it is very scenario dependant. More or less what I was looking is...your cruising along in your 172 or Cherokee etc at 6500 and your engine quits...plan to ditch in the lake or go for the trees?

[pilotman15]

There are a lot of variables but as posted, it depends on the type of trees, condition of lake, fixed gear or retractable, probable waterline relative to your planned exit door. Small trees, I will take every time. I am a lousy swimmer. If people on the ground are probable, then the water avoids placing risk on those not assuming it.

Agreed, lets assume summer, fixed gear, and uninhabited area!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

All instructors received all of their training, and pretty well have all of their time in the indicated area.

Are you saying that the run of the mill flight instructor has the experience as a pilot to satisfy you that they can give you credible advise on something this serious?

pilotman15 I am not trying to make fun of your poll just trying to remind you that you must be careful of where you go for advice. On serious issues such as where to do a forced landing, the average flight instructor has most likely never flown in those areas so be careful about accepting their advice.

[stef]

http://www.equipped.com/watertrees.htm

[Flying Low]

Having had the opportunity to actually make this decision I can tell you that is will vary greatly on the specific circumstances. My engine failure happened in a wheel equiped PA18A (Supercub) while crossing a lake at around 600-800ft agl. From where I was my choices were water, trees and a swamp/reed bed area. The water would pretty much guaranty the airplane ends up on its back and I would have to get out quickly to avoid drowning. The trees were pretty large and were tall enough to prevent me from clearing them into the cutover beyond. I picked the swamp/reed bed (part of this decision was due to it being a very dry summer). The airplane rolled about 50-100ft before clipping a piece of driftwood (due to the high reeds, I could not see it) that caused the airplane to nose over and end up on its back.

I am now a big fan of four point harnesses. The only injury I had was a sprained left thumb. This was due to after shutting everything down I had my hand on the throttle (out of habit) when the airplane nosed over. My left hand was thrown forward until the throttle hit its stop bending my thumb back. I was pretty lucky though. The nurse at triage when I walked into the hospital to get my hand checked out had trouble believing I was in a plane crash. It could have been a lot worse. When the airplane flipped it landed on another piece of driftwood that came up through the wing 3-4ft left of my head.

[2R]

Williston lake has lots of trees in it so you can have both if you want

[pilotman15]

Are you saying that the run of the mill flight instructor has the experience as a pilot to satisfy you that they can give you credible advise on something this serious?

pilotman15 I am not trying to make fun of your poll just trying to remind you that you must be careful of where you go for advice. On serious issues such as where to do a forced landing, the average flight instructor has most likely never flown in those areas so be careful about accepting their advice.

No, I didn't say that anywhere, I said that all of the instructors have done all of their training, and pretty well all of their instructing in Northern Ontario. I agree that the average flight instructor may not have much experience with Northern Ontario flying, and I also agree that one should be careful about accepting advice from all sources as they may not have the experience to give a justifiable answer. However, in my situation, all of the instructors have have enough experience in northern flying that I would have reason to take the advice from any one of them and put it into practice. The only problem that I face is that (as the poll happens to show currently) about 60% say try and put it down on the canopy and 40% say try and put it down on the water's edge.

[pilotman15]

FlyingLow thanks for the reply, I would also pick the swamp area if given the option! Glad to hear you had no serious injury. Did they ever end up yanking the cub off the swamp? Where about did this happen?

Also, great site Stef, pretty well answers the question with a little bit of stats to back it up!!

[phillyfan]

I've hit both trees and water. Both suck. You personally need to decide. In a worst case scenario which would suck more for you. Burning alive or drowning.

[pilotman15]

I've hit both trees and water. Both suck. You personally need to decide. In a worst case scenario which would suck more for you. Burning alive or drowning.

lol

[Adanac]

This one can have so many variables that you could spend a long time discussing it. My major point is to go do a polar bear swim. Put on clothing that you would normally wear on a day when the ice is just off or about to come on the lake and then jump in! That for me made my choice for trees or lake very clear as I tried to choke down my two new adams apples after trying to pull myself from the ice water.

For me, if given the choice, it would be the trees.

Not to mention, you may make a swath as you hit the trees. So a big hole in the trees along with a hopefully working ELT will make SAR's job easier and quicker in finding you. Water has a tendency to swallow you up.

Cheers,

Adanac

[joco]

There is training available for going into the lake, so you will have an exeperience of what it will come your way. Does anybody provide training for tree avoidance while on the glide?
I see the trainer's name in the COPA mag... somehow (something with B) the dunk guy.
If I would fly up north I would take his training.
joco

[yfly]

Interesting comments after several were convinced Capt. Sullenberger had no choice as to where to land. He clearly did but chose one that worked well. You can't even judge right and wrong by the results. All you can count on is the arm chair quarterbacking that will take place by all after you have made your choice.

On the swamp choice, also good, but one hidden stump can just as easily end your days.

[iflyforpie]

Williston lake has lots of trees in it so you can have both if you want

Same goes for Kinbasket Lake.

No answer could be correct for all circumstances. New growth vs dead stand vs a million other possibilities for types and densities of forests and we haven't even got into terrain and slope yet.

Water would be my last choice (especially with many occupants in the plane and no water survival gear) unless there was a sand bar or beach worthy of setting the plane on; but depending on the terrain water might be the only choice.

[BibleMonkey]

...Scenario could be seen as flying a 172 or Cherokee at 6500 in Northern Ontario during summer and the engine quits...plan to ditch in the water or go for the trees?

Hmmm...that sounds like a pretty bad situation. The best thing to do when you're in that boat, instead of memorizing those boring emergency checklists ( " what if this, what if that-then do this "-all just designed to keep you busy and distracted before your inevitable death ) is to throw all that stuff over your shoulder into the back seat, and reach in your left shirt pocket and pull out the Good Book.

Take your hands off the controls, look up and squint your eyes shut, and flip through the Bible with one hand, and then randomly jab your finger down on a passage. Then open your eyes and look down for guidance.

If your finger stopped the Holy word on , say , Deuteronomy 20:19-", thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them " -then you know God don't want you to scratch up his trees with your airplane. So land in the lake-everything will be fine.

If your finger is pointing to Revelation 20:9- " Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" -DO NOT LAND IN THE LAKE or your airplane will probably explode.

If your finger stopped on a passage that has both trees AND water, say, Exodus;
" where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees ", then turn to your
Co pilot and say in a confident voice
" You have Control" .

If you don't have a co-pilot, then take take your Koran out of your right shirt pocket.....

[yzfer]

Whenever picking a forced approach site, I always try to take into account how im going to dissipate all my energy on impact. It would make for a much nicer touch down to hit several small trees and spread it over a larger distance than hit one big tree and come to a sudden stop. Lets face it, a 2400lb 172 doesnt really stand a chance againts a tree of decent diameter. As for water, if there happens to be a sand bar or something along those lines, its probably better than the side of a mountain (not the case in Ontario, but forced approache practice in BC can be eye opening), mostly because you have time to slow for 65kts of glide, lose some speed in the flare and before touch down (hopefully), and even if you overrun the sandbar, you've lost most of your speed, as the water will bring you to a sudden stop it wont be so violent. And ideally the water would be much shallower around the sandbar or beach than just a random spot in the middle of a lake.

Now all that isn't possible in every cirumstance, but i'd always try to stay dry. If your stranded for a few days, being wet to begin with wont make it any more enjoyable.

[canadafreak]

I'd go for the trees any time. Just in case I'm out for a while, so I can't drown. But like everybody says, there is a lot to consider in such an event so who knows.