PC 12 Crash "After the pilot reported losing the panel"

[Flybaby]

SALEM, Va. - The pilot of a single-engine plane that crashed Sunday in southwestern Virginia reported losing an exterior panel shortly before the aircraft hit the ground, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said.

At least one person died in the crash, but National Transportation Safety Board investigator Todd Gunther declined to say how many people were aboard the Pilatus PC-12 when it went down about 10 a.m. on a farm owned by Virginia Tech in Rockbridge County. The NTSB is leading the investigation.

Gunther declined to release the victim's identity or other details, though he said the aircraft had climbed to 32,000 feet from 26,000 feet before dropping off radar.

The flight originated at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey and was going to Tampa Executive Airport in Florida, FAA spokesman Jim Peters said.

"After the pilot reported losing the panel, he was going to Lynchburg Regional Airport," Peters said.

The plane was registered to Nicholas, Elliott & Jordan LLC, a company with a Tampa address. A working telephone number for the company could not be located.

The plane was a Pilatus PC-12/45 turboprop, according to the FAA.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/virginia ... 3164.story

http://discussions.flightaware.com/view ... 1adfca6f50
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N578 ... /KTEB/KVDF

[Eleveniron]

here we go...

[Doc]

here we go...

Not at all. But, it will be followed closely. Being a US aircraft, the cause should be known within a week or two....not a year or two, like here in Canada.

[ScudRunner]

though he said the aircraft had climbed to 32,000 feet from 26,000 feet before dropping off radar.

My memory is fading here in my old age but isn't the PC-12 Certified only to FL300 with RVSM and limited FL250 with Pax.?

[ScudRunner]

Just read the links lol yes its only certified to FL300,

Oh but wait we are not allowed to speculate about accidents so we should lock this thread and not open a discussion about this accident.

[Cat Driver]

Not at all. But, it will be followed closely. Being a US aircraft, the cause should be known within a week or two....not a year or two, like here in Canada.

Now, now, now Doc it is bad enough to get some of the PC12 fans agitated without poking at those who will be offended because the USA finds cause before everyone dies of old age waiting for the information.

[Flybaby]

ational Transportation Safety Board investigator Tim Monville said the pilot of the aircraft, believed to be Dorsch, radioed Washington about 9:53 a.m., asking the air controller about adverse weather.

Dorsch’s altitude climbed to 32,000 feet, and he was allowed to deviate to the right for weather, according to Monville.

Dorsch then spoke of losing a panel, and asked for “a magnetic heading” to fly. He was given a southwest direction by the air traffic controller, Monville said.

A short time later, Dorsch said the Pilatus PC-12 was in descent.

The Pilatus PC-12 crashed after a vertical descent shortly after 10 a.m. on the McCormick Farm just inside the Rockbridge County line.

Monville said the NTSB’s most immediate task is to reconstruct the fragmented Pilatus PC-12, a task that will take the next four to five days.

Monville said the plane reconstruction will offer a key fact.

“We are doing this to determine whether parts of the plane separated in flight,’’ Monville said.

The plane reconstruction is difficult because of the scattered parts from the crash and because the plane’s engine and propeller are buried more than 5 feet in the ground.

Construction equipment will be needed to dig up the engine and propeller.

The NTSB has also recovered components of the plane that will reveal the plane’s speed and altitude during its flight, which began about 8:25 a.m. Sunday from the Teterboro, N.J. airport.

Meanwhile, a family member confirmed earlier Tuesday the fourth member believed to be on the plane that was headed for Tampa after a weekend in New York.

Jenny Brown, 37, who worked as a marketing director for Dorsch, was identified by her brother Greg Brown as likely being on the Pilatus PC-12 when it crashed. Greg Brown offered this information to The Tampa Tribune.

Also killed in the crash were Daniel Dorsch, 56, the pilot and former CEO of the Checkers Drive-In Restaurant chain and the owner of several Papa John’s franchises in Florida as well as the Fun Bike Center Motorsports dealership in Lakeland, Fla.

Other crash victims were Dorsch’s wife Cynthia, 55, and Cynthia’s dance instructor and dance partner, Stepan Matkovski.

The flight plan Daniel Dorsch filed with the FAA listed four passengers.

The Tribune reports that the four were returning from a weekend ballroom dance competition in New York.

There has been no official release of victims yet from the Virginia State Police or National Transportation Safety Board. So far, identification has come from the family members.

Greg Brown said his sister had moved to Florida from Tyler, Texas. She was the mother of two sons, 18 and 14.

“She was very ambitious. She was very loyal. She loved her job,’’ Greg Brown said.

http://www.newsvirginian.com/wnv/news/l ... nce/42569/

[Doc]

Not at all. But, it will be followed closely. Being a US aircraft, the cause should be known within a week or two....not a year or two, like here in Canada.

Now, now, now Doc it is bad enough to get some of the PC12 fans agitated without poking at those who will be offended because the USA finds cause before everyone dies of old age waiting for the information.

The Yanks have been known to drag their feet. We're still waiting to hear who killed JFK!

[Cat Driver]

The Yanks have been known to drag their feet. We're still waiting to hear who killed JFK!

Maybe it is because that was an internal thing and they don't think it is for public knowledge?

[Flybaby]

Officials: Crash cause might be in plane engine
Witnesses told National Transportation Safety Board investigators the corporate turboprop that was carrying four people — none survived — might have had engine problems, according to information released at a Tuesday press conference.

"All of them are consistent in hearing a discrepancy, or what they thought was a discrepancy, with the engine," said Tim Monville, a senior investigator with the NTSB. "That may not be what actually or factually occurred, but I'm telling you what they reported."

The plane, a Pilatus PC-12, was flying from New Jersey's Teterboro Airport to Tampa's Vandenburg Airport when it slammed into the field Sunday about 10 a.m. at a steep vertical descent at McCormick Farm just over the Augusta County line.

Everyone onboard was killed and debris was left strewn about 300 yards.

According to a Monday press release, family members and representatives have identified Daniel Dorsch as the pilot and his wife, Cyndie Dorsch, as a passenger. Dorsch was a Tampa businessman best known as the former chief of the Checkers fast food chain.

Monville said investigators will reconstruct the plane in the field in an effort to determine if the aircraft broke up in-flight. He said reconstruction will take several days. "The engine and the propeller, to give some perspective, are buried greater than 5 feet in the ground," he said.

During Tuesday's press conference, Monville said the pilot, still officially unidentified, was in contact with the Washington Air Route Traffic Control Center at 9:53 a.m. and asked if there was clearer weather ahead. When told there was not, an alternate course was approved for the pilot.

"At that time, the aircraft was flying at 30,800 feet," Monville said.

While attempting to climb to 32,000 feet, Monville said the pilot radioed that altitude changes could be forthcoming and that a panel on the aircraft had been lost. Shortly after requesting a heading, the pilot told the controller the plane was in a descent.

"And that was the last radio contact that we have with the pilot," Monville said. The NTSB will continue to analyze radio data from the aircraft, he said.

Some components that recorded air speed and altitude on the doomed craft have been recovered, Monville said. "They've been identified, located and secured." He said it will probably take four to six weeks to extract the information.

Shortly before the aircraft plunged to the ground, an "airline-type" aircraft below the troubled airplane was immediately ordered to descend. "So the controller perceived very quickly that they may need to clear the airspace below this aircraft and did so," Monville said.

According to the pilot's flight plan and officials at Teterboro Airport, four people were onboard the plane when it crashed. None of the victims have been identified. On Tuesday, Virginia State Police said the identification process probably won't be completed this week.

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20090 ... ane+engine

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

['effin hippie]

If he 'lost a panel' and needed a mag heading, maybe he meant his efis crapped out, 'lost THE panel', and was trying to get around on standby equipment.

That's what comes immediately to mind for me, as opposed to pieces of the A/C declaring independence in flight, as the investigator seems to be implying.

Anyway, I'll stop speculating.

ef

[xsbank]

What 'Effin says sounds right - why else would he have lost control - even if the engine kakked? Doing a lawn dart means he could not keep the shiny side up, which to me means he didn't have, or know how, to get attitude information.

These accidents have got to stop happening - too many pilots are not being able to fly their airplanes and too many innocent people die for no good reason that I can see.

Are there any of you out there who are not 100% able to do some of the maneuvers you might encounter every day? Any of these give you that 'NO' feeling: Glassy water landing? Engine fail/fire/severe damage? EFIS failure? Electrical problems? Flaps fail? Stall recovery? Trim disconnect? Whatever??

How many of you can not recite ALL of the boxed items on your checklists, right NOW? If you can't do them all, you should ground yourself until you can. Emergency Evacuation? Manual Gear Extension? Well??

Rant Switch................................OFF

[Flybaby]

I was thinking the same thing, most of the articles state the pilot lost a panel, but one states the pilot reported loosing the panel and then asking for a magnetic head, maybe flying by compass. Also it looks like the whole ordeal when down near some storm activity.

[Flybaby]

The preliminary NTSB report is out

NTSB Identification: ERA09FA376
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, July 05, 2009 in Raphine, VA
Aircraft: PILATUS PC-12/45, registration: N578DC
Injuries: 4 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 5, 2009, about 1002 eastern daylight time, a Pilatus PC12/45, N578DC, registered to Nicholas Elliott & Jordan LLC, impacted in a pasture near Raphine, Virginia, following an in-flight loss of control. Visual meteorological conditions (VMC) prevailed in the area of the accident site and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan was filed and activated for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91 personal flight from Teterboro Airport (TEB), Teterboro, New Jersey, to Tampa Executive Airport (VDF), Tampa, Florida. The airplane was destroyed by impact and the certificated private pilot and three passengers were killed.

According to preliminary air traffic control (ATC) information, the IFR flight plan intended the cruise portion of the flight to be flown at flight level (FL) 260. The flight departed TEB about 0824:45, and while en route, ATC communications were transferred to several facilities. The airplane was ultimately cleared to FL300.

Approximately 0926, the pilot established contact with the R52 sector of the Washington Air Route Traffic Control Center (Washington ARTCC) and advised the controller that the flight was at FL300. While in radio contact with the controller, the flight remained at FL300 on a southwesterly heading. Approximately 0953, the pilot asked the controller if he saw an area ahead clear of weather. The controller responded that ground based weather radar was depicting heavy weather ahead from his three to nine o’clock positions. The pilot then requested to deviate 40 to 50 degrees to the right which was approved. Approximately 0954, ATC communications were transferred from the R52 sector to the R37 sector of the Washington ARTCC.

Preliminary ATC information further indicated that the pilot contacted the R37 sector controller approximately 0954 and requested a climb to FL320, which was approved.

Preliminary radar data indicated the airplane reached a maximum altitude of FL310 while flying in a southwesterly direction. It then descended toward FL308 and turned to a westerly heading. The flight remained on the westerly heading until 0959:43, when the flight turned to the left and proceeded on a southerly heading at FL308.

Approximately 1000, ATC communications were transferred back to the R52 sector controller, and during the pilot’s first contact with the controller, he stated that he needed a “…little dee gee heading I lost my panel…” and was in the weather. The R52 sector controller questioned the pilot about what he had lost and whether he needed a heading. The pilot did not clarify for the controller what panel he was referring to but responded that he needed a heading. The controller then questioned whether the pilot was clear of weather and the pilot replied he was. The controller provided a heading of 230 degrees, for radar vectors to the JOINN intersection.

The preliminary radar data depicted the airplane flying in a southerly direction between 1001:01, and 1001:38. Approximately 1001, the pilot advised the controller that his altitude was going to “move a little bit.”

The controller immediately advised the flight crew of an airliner (call sign Blue Streak 503) that was climbing below the accident airplane to stop their ascent, and to maintain FL290. The controller then asked the accident pilot to advise him if he would be unable to maintain above FL300 due to traffic. The pilot did not respond. The controller repeated the partial call sign of the accident airplane and the pilot responded that the flight was in a descent with the rest of his transmission being unintelligible. There was no further recorded transmission from the accident pilot.

Preliminary radar data recorded between 1001:34, and 1002:06, showed the accident airplane beginning a right descending turn. The last two radar targets that had altitude information showed that the airplane descended from FL287 to FL221 in 14 seconds.

The captain of Blue Streak 503 reported that while climbing through FL 260, he and his first officer heard the pilot of the accident airplane make a report that he had “lost a panel.” At no point during the entire event did the crew of Blue Streak 503 receive an advisory or resolution advisory on their Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) display. The accident airplane’s heading on their TCAS appeared to curve around on their Multi Function Display. The weather conditions at FL 260 were solid IMC with no icing, and the on board weather radar depicted some green for light precipitation in the area even though there was no rain on the windscreen. There was no convective activity depicted on their weather radar, and the ride conditions consisted of light chop. Shortly after the accident, Blue Streak descended to FL 240, on a heading of 180 degrees, and encountered VMC with on overcast layer below.

A person on the ground heard a sound that he associated with a jet type engine in distress. He went outside and looked up but was unable to see anything. He went back inside and again heard a similar sound, with a sound that he thought was an airplane climbing and then descending. The sound then went silent followed by a deep thud.

Examination of the accident site revealed the airplane’s heading at the initial impact was approximately 032 degrees magnetic, while the energy path of wreckage debris was oriented on a magnetic heading of 304 degrees. The airplane was nearly completely fragmented with the exception of the vertical stabilizer with attached rudder and rudder trim tab.

[Donald]

The last two radar targets that had altitude information showed that the airplane descended from FL287 to FL221 in 14 seconds.

Wow, that would be a descent rate in excess of 28,000 feet per minute.

[ScudRunner]

I know PC-12's are built like tanks and other than the Cargo door or the Pax door ripping off and causing a further structural damage I really think this pilot was referring to the instruments.

However this pilot was completely unaware of the service ceiling of his aircraft and perhaps while at these altitudes the Pressurization system was not able to keep up. I know I have set the pressurization incorrectly and you get the Surge from the valves with the climbing and descending cabin which someone may think that while dodging TCU's that he lost a panel causing this leak but to loose control and plummet to the earth because of it is highly unlikely but something to consider until ruled out by the investigators.

As for the EFIS Systems Failure, the PC-12 has Dual ADHRS and when one fails you can switch to the other with the flick of a switch in addition as on most aircraft one ADHRS feeds the Captains Attitude indicator and the F/O HSI and the second ADHRS feeds the F/O's Attitude indicator and the Captains HSI. All four tubes can be switch to composite mode getting all info from just one tube. Now I know I am Assuming this is a 4 tube system and there are PC-12's out there with the co pilots side in the old analog style but the dual ADHRS remains the same with 2 Tubes on the Captains Side.

Back Up instruments Include the "Peanut" and the Standard Gauges.

The only thing I can think of is when he lost the panel at that altitude he may have got into some sort of high Speed stall while trying to hand fly the aircraft and work out the problem and this resulted in going above the VNE or below a speed that could not support lift at an Altitude for which this aircraft was not certified for operations in addition to being in IMC and single pilot. As I recall the Barber pole was fairly close while in Cruise up at 250 and perhaps at that altitude it didn't take much to push it over. The pilots level of Emergency procedures training is open to question as he did not know a limitation, I know there are a lot of factors and look forward to the report on this one, I know the NTSB will be thorough in there investigation.

All this being said I know there are people on here who demand no speculation until the final report is issued but I think in the mean time talking about possibilities and opening up scenarios can highlight a factor that may shed some light on an area/emergency that a fellow pilot may have not been aware of and serve to educate.

[Flybaby]

. I agree with everything your saying, but after looking at that panel I can't imagine loosing one two or even more of those instruments should cause the plane to fall out of the sky. Is most of the panel AC driven? Would a double inverter failure cause havoc?

[Easy Flyer]

Does anyone know about the pilot's previous experience? The PC-12 is single engine and is quite easy to fly so it seems to attract a lot of the lower time pilots that normally would be in piston singles. I remember when I was at Simcom a few years ago the other fellow on my course had never flown anything bigger than a 172. In the sim he had a lot of difficulty starting the engine let alone flying the thing.

[vova_k]

...In the sim he had a lot of difficulty starting the engine let alone flying the thing.

Excuse me, but can you explain, please, how can one have a difficulty to start an engine in PC12 ??? In my opinion, it's easier than starting piston engine on 172...

[ScudRunner]

. I agree with everything your saying, but after looking at that panel I can't imagine loosing one two or even more of those instruments should cause the plane to fall out of the sky. Is most of the panel AC driven? Would a double inverter failure cause havoc?

I believe it is AC driven but a double inverter failure would result in a switch to Battery power which I believe it is automatic then of course shed the load of unnecessary systems lights, furns etc and you would be off the battery.
*note I'm kinda hazy with my PC-12 Checklists its been about 2 years and 3 new types so if someone current could confirm or correct this info that would be very welcomed.

I just came across a discussion on another forum, check out this track log on flightaware for this aircraft.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N578 ... F/tracklog

09:55AM 38.08 -78.92 186 30000 level Washington Center
09:56AM 38.06 -78.97 175 30600 climbing Washington Center
09:57AM 38.05 -79.02 162 30500 descending Washington Center
09:58AM 38.04 -79.07 156 30800 climbing Washington Center
09:59AM 38.03 -79.13 156 30800 level Washington Center
10:00AM 38.02 -79.19 162 30800 level Washington Center
10:01AM 37.99 -79.24 167 31200 climbing Washington Center
10:02AM 37.94 -79.24 164 32000 climbing Washington Center
10:03AM 37.92 -79.22 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:04AM 37.89 -79.21 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:05AM 37.86 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:06AM 37.83 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:07AM 37.83 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:08AM 37.83 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:09AM 37.83 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center
10:10AM 37.83 -79.20 105 32000 level Washington Center

I don't know the accuracy of this but at 10:03 he levels at 320 and I know its ground speed and I do not know the upper winds but it show's 105kts and with the other reports such as this

Preliminary radar data recorded between 1001:34, and 1002:06, showed the accident airplane beginning a right descending turn. The last two radar targets that had altitude information showed that the airplane descended from FL287 to FL221 in 14 seconds.

Whichever the cause of the instrument failure, I think it's safe to conclude it stalled and spun in.