Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?

[loopa]

Nope it wouldn't ! hehe And I agree with what you have to say.

[undecided]

I know this is an old thread, so my apologies for raising it to the top. However, I wanted to ask for clarification on one thought I had regarding this.

If I cover all the costs of a rental, as a PPL, can I fly passengers and drop them off at a destination?

The reason I ask is because the passengers would then become the purpose of the flight, but it wouldn't be for hire or cost sharing. Make sense?

[DanWEC]

Hey, this is an old thread!
Anyhow, whether you are flying your own plane or renting one, the passenger relation is irrelevant if they aren't paying you. You can fly them anywhere they want.
Think of it as picking up a hitchiker and bringing them somewhere. Completely legit (even though there is the ass, gas or grass standard).
However you pick people up and ask for money, you'd need a taxi license.

[Rookie50]

I have researched and read the CAR in question. In my view, A) if you are a renter, you are not a lessee, (debatable point). 2), cost sharing means cost Sharing. You cannot bill the passenger for the whole flight. C) the only eligible costs to be shared are as stated; fuel oil and fees -- this means landing fees. Not rental, not all direct operating costs as referenced in a different subsection of the Car. D) if you advertise in any way, whether you are planning to go or not anyway, you are inviting TC to investigate you for running a charter. And it won't matter what you think your interpretation is, it is what They say it is. It also may invalidate insurance in case of an accident. Not worth those kind of risks to me.

Just noticed how old this is. Oh well.

[Heliian]

So here is something to blur the lines, i was curious and came across this site

http://adventureseekertours.com/flying_lessons.htm

It seems to be legal for training ultra light pilots but the "joy flight" tours seem to be pushing the limits. An FTU may conduct sightseeing but does that include AULA's?

A/C is privately registered btw

[lownslow]

All I get from this thread is that chisel charters are the scourge of the industry but a chisel sched service seems oddly legal.

LnS.

P.S. No, I'm not starting a back alley Airline. Who in their right mind would actually pay to try to get somewhere in bone stock Cub anyways?

[Beefitarian]

What would transport do to a private pilot running a chisel charter?

[Meatservo]

What would transport do to a private pilot running a chisel charter?

You ever see the end of "Braveheart"?

[jump154]

What would transport do to a private pilot running a chisel charter?

You ever see the end of "Braveheart"?

Which is probably the origin of the term Chisel Charter

[Beefitarian]

What would transport do to a private pilot running a chisel charter?

You ever see the end of "Braveheart"?

Yeah. He gets together with a hot French Princess or somthing, right?

[Beefitarian]

Maybe that was Rob Roy...

[Sun85]

Hello, everyone. Good to join. Long time reader, first time poster. And, yes, thanks to 401.28...

This has been quite a challenge trying to figure this out. I want to reduce the cost of time building, and manage not to violate any regulations in the process. Here's what I've learned so far (please, correct me if I am wrong).

1. A PPL holder may rent an airplane, and
2. Have passengers share the costs of the rental, provided
3. The passengers are incidental to the flight, and
4. The pilot may advertise that he flies from A to B on such-and-such date(s) and anyone is welcome to join him and share the costs.

And here is where I am lost. What is "incidental?" The many explanations I've seen, including on this thread, state that the pilot must have been going on a flight anyway, passengers or no passengers. And this, folks, doesn't make much sense. Because if this was the case, it would be impossible to share costs with your buddies who decided that the best way to spend the afternoon was to have you fly them around. Is TC expecting a pilot to tell his buddies: "I'd love to, but it's too expensive, because you can't share the cost of the rental with me, since I was not going to fly today until we got together and started talking about the best way to spend this afternoon."

So, does 401.28 (2) prevent you from sharing the costs of the flight you've planned together with another person? In other words, does 401.28 (2) allow you to share the costs ONLY if you've decided to go on a flight yourself passengers or no passengers, and only after making that decision you asked others if they would want to join you, and they agreed?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts, folks. I think that 401.28(2) is meant to stop PPL-holders from acting like commercial operators, as opposed to preventing PPL-holders from sharing the cost of time building with friends and acquaintances. What do you think? And does anyone have links to TC case law in regards to 401.28 (2)? I could only find a case about fishing lodge operators flying clients in, and a case about a guy owning two companies, and an airplane being leased from one company to another - clearly not the situation I've described above. Thanks again!

[Colonel Sanders]

www.pittspecials.com/articles/Compensation.htm

[Lotro]

All I get from this thread is that chisel charters are the scourge of the industry but a chisel sched service seems oddly legal.

LnS.

P.S. No, I'm not starting a back alley Airline. Who in their right mind would actually pay to try to get somewhere in bone stock Cub anyways?

ME! I'd pay!

[photofly]

I don't understand why everyone wants to make this so complicated. Oh wait, yes I do. It's because everyone wants to find a loophole that lets them get other people to pay them for flying.

What's *your* purpose for the flight? If the carriage of other people is *your* purpose then you can't get them to contribute to the cost.

You don't have to actually be ready to make the flight without the other people present (obviously you can decide that without them sharing the cost it's too expensive) but, if the other people don't come along, the purpose of your flight must not be frustrated.

"I would like to go sightseeing and I'd like other people to help defray the cost" is fine. If you flew without the others you would still achieve the purpose of your flight - the sightseeing. They would be incidental to the flight.

"I would like to fly some other people so they can go sightseeing" - is not fine. If you flew without the others then the purpose of the flight (for *them* to go sightseeing) wouldn't be met. They would not be incidental to the flight.

[Meatservo]

It's like this, see? If you buy a girl dinner and take her to a movie, and she decides she likes you and goes back to your place, fair enough. Now you can go on "face book" and boast about all the pervy things she likes to do. BUT if you pay her to go home with you, well, we know what kind of girl that is, and you probably won't be boasting about it, even if you wound up forking out less than the cost of dinner and a movie. If you buy THAT kind of girl dinner and a movie, why that's just incidental. She's a commercial girl.

[kevenv]

It's like this, see? If you buy a girl dinner and take her to a movie, and she decides she likes you and goes back to your place, fair enough. Now you can go on "face book" and boast about all the pervy things she likes to do. BUT if you pay her to go home with you, well, we know what kind of girl that is, and you probably won't be boasting about it, even if you wound up forking out less than the cost of dinner and a movie. If you buy THAT kind of girl dinner and a movie, why that's just incidental. She's a commercial girl.

[Colonel Sanders]

New topic for the required 80 hrs of CPL
groundschool: learning the difference between
romance and commerce!

[lownslow]

New topic for the required 80 hrs of CPL
groundschool: learning the difference between
romance and commerce!

Now THAT'S where the infamous pilot shortage will begin.

LnS.

[RatherBeFlying]

Well there was the odd flight that a buddy wanted to do: visit Montreal, see Niagara Falls, join his wife who was several hours driving away with relatives... I was open about the costs and being good buddies, they put up their share.

I even got ramped once. I told my buddies I'd catch up to them in the restaurant. Showed the inspector the documents, got told I also needed first aid kit and made generally conscientious noises .

[Sun85]

Well there was the odd flight that a buddy wanted to do: visit Montreal, see Niagara Falls, join his wife who was several hours driving away with relatives... I was open about the costs and being good buddies, they put up their share.

I even got ramped once. I told my buddies I'd catch up to them in the restaurant. Showed the inspector the documents, got told I also needed first aid kit and made generally conscientious noises .

Are you saying that flying buddies where THEY want to go and sharing the cost is ok with TC (as long as you have a first aid kit)?

[cncpc]

Funny you should ask, I was on the opposite end of this convo last month. Here's what I learned:

1. You need to actually own the plane you'd be flying - its illegal to do what you are suggesting in a plane that you don't personally own.

2. The pax have to be incidental to the trip - ie you have to be going on the trip whether or not anyone else is. Make sure you understand this requirement thoroughly. You cannot legally say "I will fly you to CY** for 50/hr", its only legal if your situation is like "I'm going to Oshkosh and have a spare seat if anyone's interested"

3. The pax can only contribute a proportional share of fuel and oil costs. Ie 1 seat out of 4 means 1/4 of the fuel bill.

You really, really don't want to be on the wrong side of the law if there's an incident or accident, so be careful here. You do NOT want to be violated by tc for something like this if you ever plan on flying for a living.

If you don't own the plane, the conversation is already over, and you have indicated that you rent so my guess is that this is a non-starter for you.

Actually, Sulako, that isn't quite correct regarding a rental airplane. Anyone can pay for a rental airplane. It's no different than a rental car. The driver may have to be qualified, but he or she doesn't necessarily have to pay the bill at the end. Any person or group or persons can contract to rent an airplane, and the rental will very likely be provided so long as they have a pilot qualified to fly the airplane.

I used to work in corporate communications for a large forest products company, and they simply arranged for a rental and paid for it, and I picked up the airplane and used it. If I remember, it was Pacific Flying Club. There is also nothing stopping a passenger from paying for the airplane.

I have about 600 hours of flying where I only paid either a quarter or a sixth of the rental cost. Someone else paid the full cost when the bill was made up, and I reimbursed them for my share. On the other hand, I never solicited passengers.

[Sun85]

Cncpc, nowhere in 401.28 would we find any prohibition against soliciting pax.

Folks, the ONLY TC cases I found on the Internet in regards to 401.28 are those where TC thought that people with PPL were running a commercial service. It is beyond belief that TC officials would write 401.28 with the intent of prohibiting people from arranging a shared-cost flight with their pilot buddy. Who is getting hurt here? A commercial pilot missing on a flight by paying customers? But these guys don't want to fly with a commercial pilot - they want to fly with their buddy to where they (pax) want, and share the cost. So what's the problem here? All I want is a reasonable explanation, please

[Beefitarian]

Are you saying that flying buddies where THEY want to go and sharing the cost is ok with TC (as long as you have a first aid kit)?

I think he's telling you that when he was ramp checked they did not inquire as to who was paying for the flight costs or lunch. So he did not tell them.

Many of us have never even seen someone get ramp checked. Never mind actually being checked our selves.

Littering is against the law, yet there's new Tim Horton's cups and wrappers on my lawn every day. I'm pretty sure none of the people dropping them have been fined for it.

It's kind of like selling drugs. Probably only your customers or people you and them tell, will ever know. The problem arises when your customer's brother meets a TC inspector at a party. "Hey you do airplane stuff? Do you know the guy that gives my brother rides for cheap?" TC inspector, "I'm not sure. What's his name?"...

Or another pilot you talked with tries and then gets caught. During the conversation with the inspector they say, "But Sun85 does this all the time. Why are you mad at me?"

In the case of renting why would they care who pays for it? If you were coming in every week with different strangers that paid for every flight they might not even care as long as they are making money. However if Transport ever asked they'd turn you in with the next breath.

[Mr.Blonde]

If you try to find a loop in the CAR to decrease the cost of your CPL maybe you can't afford it ! As per your title, you're in training which means that you shall practice somethings...The only few time I had passenger with me, I considered that as passenger management and I never asked money to my buddies/family and there's nothing like after a flight with a girls and she ask "how much I owe you", you reply "don't worry about that" with a wink...there's a lot of way to save money during CPL !

If you ask the dealer the price of a Ducati Desmosedici RR, you can't afford it !