Okay, so some rich bitch gets a bit tipsy and obnoxious on a flight - the FA's aren't responding to her drink requests quick enough for her liking, so she helps herself to a drink from the cart. How the hell does this become a police matter? I thought those Air Marshall's were supposed to be somewhat secretive, and remain under cover unless there is some serious issue ... you know, something along the lines of a terrorist.
This hardly seems like the kind of thing that warrants being roughed up and slapped in hand cuffs. Do you honestly think if it had been a domestic flight, and some US Judge's wife had been similarly handled; that the Air Marshall wouldn't get similarly bitch-slapped by their own judge?
It's not like they were being dragged off to some black-hole of a medieval Turkish prison here. I'm sure the US Authorities would have been notified of the incident in pretty short order, and the State Department would come down on Brazil like a tonne of bricks if some 'kangaroo court' kind of thing took place.
All I see are over zealous hot heads on both sides of this, both the Air Marshall's and the Brazilians. But one of those parties had been issued a court order not to leave the country until the matter had been dealt with. But of course it appears that as a citizen of one of the 'good', 'civilized' countries; we have the option of ignoring that and doing whatever we please.
Comparing this to Iraq under Saddam? ... give me a friggin break.
U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
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Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
My understanding is that the primary role of the "Air Marshall" is to safeguard the aircraft against terrorist threats is it not? Was the crew of this flight not able to deal with this passenger themselves and perhaps with assitance of other passengers? Are Air Marshalls not supposed to be the last line of defence? Something is missing in this story given that one would think had there not been any Air Marshals, how would the situation have been handled?
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Please go here viewtopic.php?f=49&t=68631 for Widow's unfortunate comment and subsequent off topic responses.
Thank you. I never refuse a free beer. It is just not polite. hehehe
Now as to what happened in this incident, I asked a lawyer friend of mine to look into the matter here in Brazil because it just seemed a little too weird.
There was no issue with the fact that the woman was being a jerk on the aircraft. Being a wife of a judge or not, it was a given and she would have been fined for that……would have been…..see below.
It seems that the whole incident of the Sky Marshals being charged with simple assault revolves around their use of handcuffs on the woman for five straight hours and refusing to let her use the toilet. I am told that you can’t do that to a prisoner. You have to allow them toilet facilities and can keep them restrained (sit there and don’t move kind of thing) but can’t keep them shackled for hours on end.
It was deemed to be beyond a reasonable use of force and like any other normal street police office, they were charged…by the police at the airport, (not by a Federal Judge. Judges don’t charge people) with misdemeanor assault.
Wait for it…..
As Brazilian aircraft don’t carry handcuffs this had never occurred before. The law doesn’t really address the issue of aircraft, so a hearing was quickly scheduled to get a ruling and some case law on the books from a Judge. The law really addresses ships, but they have a brig. As everyone knows things are different on an aircraft.
Everyone (Unions, Pilot Associations etc) was eagerly awaiting the hearing because the issue really needed clearing up.
The Sky Marchal’s passports were held over the weekend and they were released on their word that they would appear in court. All was well in legal land.
But then the Sky Marshals skipped town. So there was no ruling, which would have gone in the favor of restraint, the female twit in question was set free because there was no one left to testify against her, and the actions of the Sky Marshals in general were called into question. It is the same as in Canada, if you flee you are seen to be guilty, whatever reasons you may have.
They actually blew a glorious opportunity to get exactly what they needed, a ruling in their favor for the right to restrain as needed. US law is not omnipotent. There are certain niceties that need to be observed with other nation’s laws.
Thank you. I never refuse a free beer. It is just not polite. hehehe
Now as to what happened in this incident, I asked a lawyer friend of mine to look into the matter here in Brazil because it just seemed a little too weird.
There was no issue with the fact that the woman was being a jerk on the aircraft. Being a wife of a judge or not, it was a given and she would have been fined for that……would have been…..see below.
It seems that the whole incident of the Sky Marshals being charged with simple assault revolves around their use of handcuffs on the woman for five straight hours and refusing to let her use the toilet. I am told that you can’t do that to a prisoner. You have to allow them toilet facilities and can keep them restrained (sit there and don’t move kind of thing) but can’t keep them shackled for hours on end.
It was deemed to be beyond a reasonable use of force and like any other normal street police office, they were charged…by the police at the airport, (not by a Federal Judge. Judges don’t charge people) with misdemeanor assault.
Wait for it…..
As Brazilian aircraft don’t carry handcuffs this had never occurred before. The law doesn’t really address the issue of aircraft, so a hearing was quickly scheduled to get a ruling and some case law on the books from a Judge. The law really addresses ships, but they have a brig. As everyone knows things are different on an aircraft.
Everyone (Unions, Pilot Associations etc) was eagerly awaiting the hearing because the issue really needed clearing up.
The Sky Marchal’s passports were held over the weekend and they were released on their word that they would appear in court. All was well in legal land.
But then the Sky Marshals skipped town. So there was no ruling, which would have gone in the favor of restraint, the female twit in question was set free because there was no one left to testify against her, and the actions of the Sky Marshals in general were called into question. It is the same as in Canada, if you flee you are seen to be guilty, whatever reasons you may have.
They actually blew a glorious opportunity to get exactly what they needed, a ruling in their favor for the right to restrain as needed. US law is not omnipotent. There are certain niceties that need to be observed with other nation’s laws.
Last edited by Widow on Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: To indicate thread split
Reason: To indicate thread split
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Thanks for posting that additional info TTJJ. That version of events makes a lot of sense.
Cheers,
Brew
Brew
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
TTJJ
Thanks for taking some of the mud out of the water....
Thanks for taking some of the mud out of the water....
Q: How many Microsoft Programmers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: It cannot be done. You will need to upgrade your house.
A: It cannot be done. You will need to upgrade your house.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Thanks for refreshing perspective TTJJ.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
If the same thing happened to me in the US I would do the same thing as those air marshalls. Get the hell out. All justice systems in the world incarcerate people wrongfully, and not always by mistake.
Goverments have always done whatever they could get away with. Most goverments can get away with quite a bit.
Lets suppose the air marshalls had commited a crime and would have ended up in a jail. They would flee. On the other hand suppose they didn't do anything wrong. In that case no one has any right to detain them and they have every right to flee. In either case only someone with a very misplaced sense of loyalty to authority would stay under those conditions when they had a chance to hop on an airplane and forget the incident entirely.
Goverments have always done whatever they could get away with. Most goverments can get away with quite a bit.
Lets suppose the air marshalls had commited a crime and would have ended up in a jail. They would flee. On the other hand suppose they didn't do anything wrong. In that case no one has any right to detain them and they have every right to flee. In either case only someone with a very misplaced sense of loyalty to authority would stay under those conditions when they had a chance to hop on an airplane and forget the incident entirely.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
So what you are saying is that you would flee the US even if there was a court order for you to stay for a hearing ?ahramin wrote:If the same thing happened to me in the US I would do the same thing as those air marshalls. Get the hell out. All justice systems in the world incarcerate people wrongfully, and not always by mistake.
Goverments have always done whatever they could get away with. Most goverments can get away with quite a bit.
Lets suppose the air marshalls had commited a crime and would have ended up in a jail. They would flee. On the other hand suppose they didn't do anything wrong. In that case no one has any right to detain them and they have every right to flee. In either case only someone with a very misplaced sense of loyalty to authority would stay under those conditions when they had a chance to hop on an airplane and forget the incident entirely.
The Us would go for extradition and you would probably be sent back. And I imagine it would not help because you would look guilty.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
I understand your reasoning Abramin.
If it was a one time "I'll never come back to this hole so I am out of here" kind of deal I might agree more with you.
The problem is there are Air Marchals on all the flights from all the US airlines coming to Brazil almost ALL the time. These Air Marchal's actions, it seems, have cast doubt on the actions of ALL the other ones. They are agents representing their Government in an official capacity. You don't throw those types of people in jail. And as a representative or law enforcement agent, you can't really snub your nose at another nation's legal system. That is just not cool....
I might point out that after researching the topic, I found out that the Air Marchal's make an average of 4.2 arrests per year. That is not an individual agent's average. In a universe of 4000 agents the average for the whole agency is 4.2 arrests per year.
Maybe, as they are not used to arresting people, they really did do it wrong.
As a side note I learned today that the Juge's wife is saying that she did not yell,
" You can't do this to me. My husband is a Federal Judge."
But that she yelled,
"You can't do this me. My husband is a Federal Judge and he has told me that this is illegal."
Text artfully added, or artfully removed?
Who said what? I don't know. We never will. There was no official court transcript, because there was no court case.
I guess we are back to speculation.
If it was a one time "I'll never come back to this hole so I am out of here" kind of deal I might agree more with you.
The problem is there are Air Marchals on all the flights from all the US airlines coming to Brazil almost ALL the time. These Air Marchal's actions, it seems, have cast doubt on the actions of ALL the other ones. They are agents representing their Government in an official capacity. You don't throw those types of people in jail. And as a representative or law enforcement agent, you can't really snub your nose at another nation's legal system. That is just not cool....
I might point out that after researching the topic, I found out that the Air Marchal's make an average of 4.2 arrests per year. That is not an individual agent's average. In a universe of 4000 agents the average for the whole agency is 4.2 arrests per year.
Maybe, as they are not used to arresting people, they really did do it wrong.
As a side note I learned today that the Juge's wife is saying that she did not yell,
" You can't do this to me. My husband is a Federal Judge."
But that she yelled,
"You can't do this me. My husband is a Federal Judge and he has told me that this is illegal."
Text artfully added, or artfully removed?
Who said what? I don't know. We never will. There was no official court transcript, because there was no court case.
I guess we are back to speculation.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Brazil has laws ?
Who knew ?
News to me and all the bankrobbers who fled to hide there with their stolen money.
As for extradition: i would pay money to see some Judges drunken wife in court trying to explain why she felt she was above the laws her husband is paid to administer .It would be interesting to what kind of legal arguement Brazil would make .
Someone hurt her feelings ?
Your seriously anti-american sentiments almost hide your flawed logic
Who knew ?
News to me and all the bankrobbers who fled to hide there with their stolen money.
As for extradition: i would pay money to see some Judges drunken wife in court trying to explain why she felt she was above the laws her husband is paid to administer .It would be interesting to what kind of legal arguement Brazil would make .
Someone hurt her feelings ?
Your seriously anti-american sentiments almost hide your flawed logic
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
TTJJ, I in fact do snub my nose at everyone's legal systems. For good reason.
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Fair enough Ahramin, as long as it is everybody's.
I wouldn't want to be playing favorites here
I wouldn't want to be playing favorites here
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
So your point is that the air marshals were smart to abscond from a country whose attitude to crime is so lax, it lets bank robbers roam free. Now THAT'S logical.2R wrote:Brazil has laws ?
Who knew ?
News to me and all the bankrobbers who fled to hide there with their stolen money.
Well you could've seen it if only the American air marshals hadn't broken the law and run away. But given that you have such confidence in America's faithful observance of extradition treaties - which they have with Brazil - no doubt, you are confident that they'll be sent back down there shortly... I won't hold my breath on that one.As for extradition: i would pay money to see some Judges drunken wife in court trying to explain why she felt she was above the laws her husband is paid to administer .It would be interesting to what kind of legal arguement Brazil would make .
Re: U.S. air marshals flee Brazil
Why would she yell, "My husband is a Federal judge and has told me this is illegal." Was he on the airplane with her? Perhaps she had called him before boarding the flight and talked about the potential for getting arrested because she was planning on getting pissed up and causing trouble on the airplane? Making any reference to the fact her husband is a judge shows where her thinking is at; She believes she can do as she wants and that others will be intimidated by her connections.
There are no time limits on how long a person can be held in restraints, in Canada at least. Someone arrested on a plane, or a prisoner being transported from A to B will be cuffed and shackled for the duration of the flight, even if it takes all day. However, it would be unreasonable to deny her to use the washroom. However, they probably did her a big favour by keeping her restrained until they got to Brazil. If they had landed when still 5 hours from destination, who would they have been turning her over to with a complaint of endangering the aircraft? Arriving home to your own country after a few hours in cuffs and pisisng your pants would likely be looking like the much preferable option at that point.
As for them buggering off out of the country, that was likely done according to their agency's policy and that is likely why they had a secondary set of documents that allowed them to board another flight out of Dodge. If I were in their shoes, I would do the same thing. Get out of the country and let the diplomats sort out the jurisdictional issues from the safety of my own home. Other Air Marshals will not be at risk in the future because the two governments will be busy negotiating agreements on how to handle another situation of this type. The last thing you want is an international jurisdictional incident being left in the hands of local law enforcement and low level courts. Neither really has the expertise or authority to properly deal with the issue.
There are no time limits on how long a person can be held in restraints, in Canada at least. Someone arrested on a plane, or a prisoner being transported from A to B will be cuffed and shackled for the duration of the flight, even if it takes all day. However, it would be unreasonable to deny her to use the washroom. However, they probably did her a big favour by keeping her restrained until they got to Brazil. If they had landed when still 5 hours from destination, who would they have been turning her over to with a complaint of endangering the aircraft? Arriving home to your own country after a few hours in cuffs and pisisng your pants would likely be looking like the much preferable option at that point.
As for them buggering off out of the country, that was likely done according to their agency's policy and that is likely why they had a secondary set of documents that allowed them to board another flight out of Dodge. If I were in their shoes, I would do the same thing. Get out of the country and let the diplomats sort out the jurisdictional issues from the safety of my own home. Other Air Marshals will not be at risk in the future because the two governments will be busy negotiating agreements on how to handle another situation of this type. The last thing you want is an international jurisdictional incident being left in the hands of local law enforcement and low level courts. Neither really has the expertise or authority to properly deal with the issue.
