Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

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photofly
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Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

Company: Northern Air Charter
...
Northern Air is looking for a motivated individual to be a part of our team in the beautiful Peace Country.

Presently, we are looking to fill a dispatch position suitable for an entry level pilot. 500 hours total time and prior dispatch experience are required. A one year commitment to the dispatch position would be required prior to being eligible for the flight line.
Should we rewrite CAR 421.30(4) - Commercial Pilot Licence Aeroplanes - requirements - to include (a)(ii)(C) one year working a dispatch job ?

This is indentured servitude, isn't it? Genesis 29:20, and all that.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Meatservo »

I don't think it's indentured servitude. It would be indentured servitude if they only hired applicants from another country, and made them work for free until they'd paid off their plane tickets to get there.

This is more like what I like to call "a job". While they don't explicitly state that there is pay, it's implied by the word "job" in the phrase "job ad".

This particular job is being offered to people who "meet the requirements". Requirements are a thing that employers are free to impose in order to pre-screen applicants. They are obviously looking for someone who meets "the requirements". Maybe they also look for pilots who meet other "requirements", one of which might be a thing called "work experience", or, failing that, maybe some history with the company. See above.

So no, I don't think it qualifies as "indentured servitude". I think it qualifies as "work".

Maybe some "generation y" people need to get off their entitled butts and go get some "experience" that might lead to a better "job" and save the whining for later!
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by FL7377 »

In an indentured servitude relationship, the master has a responsibility to take care of the indentured servant in exchange for services performed.

This is a job. If the salary offered doesn't pay your food, shelter, flight school bills, ect - tough sh*t - find another job.

An indentured relationship would be a step up....
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

Does a pilot who works as a dispatcher for a year deserve to be paid less, or deserve poorer conditions and benefits than someone who takes a dispatcher position (or an equivalent kind of desk role) on its own merits? I don't think so. But that is clearly the case here. Which I think is distasteful.

I guess this is not indentured servitude: an indentured servant gets an up-front benefit from the employer and pays it back over a period of time. In this case the employee is paying it forward to the employer by working for less than the market value of the job for at least a year. A kind of pay-to-fly, in fact.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by co-joe »

I like Mr King's candour on this one. Takes the guess work out of the question "how long will I be on the ramp?" Not less than one year. Period. If he's asking for 500 hours then it's the right seat king air for AB health after that, providing you fit in, and they need someone, etc. The flight line will no doubt involve a large training bond.

I'd almost prefer this to an indefinite ramp job that might lead to the flight line.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Meddler »

Meatservo, that was good. Really really good.

Just because you are a Pilot, can pay for flight training on credit, a pass tc exams does not mean you are entitled to stroll into a flying job. An add like this hopefully weeds out the aviator wearing hair slicked back shiny shoes mommy paid for 250 hour crowd.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by iflyforpie »

Maybe some "generation y" people need to get off their entitled butts and go get some "experience" that might lead to a better "job" and save the whining for later!
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by North Shore »

Don't like the terms, then don't apply..

I'd like to think, though, that anyone with 500 hours would have enough self-worth to not apply.. Then NAC could get on and pay a non-pilot enough that they'd show up for work everyday for a non-flying job. For that's all it is - a non-flying job. They want 500 hours for it because they know that a pilot will show up, and take whatever crap is flung at them on a daily basis because of the carrot of a seat in an aeroplane...
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

One could of course take the job then employ someone else who doesn't want to be a pilot to do the work for you, while you make up the difference in salary to them out of your own pocket. Alternatively you could give Northern Air Charter $20k and have them do it for you. Perhaps if you give them $25k they'd not make you wait a year.

Would you rather walk into a job right out of college, or would you rather buy one?
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by AllClutch »

NAC offers a chance to pilots stuck in the instructor loop to get out and have a career in 703/704. They offer above average salaries to their pilots and good working conditions. If you go there with the 500 hours odds are that you will be in the seat in less than 6 months if your not a Whiney weirdo. Living and working in the north isn't for everyone and if Rob hired every new pilot living in their moms basement right into the seat his training costs would skyrocket with the turnover.
This is a good opportunity for someone who fits the bill. If you don't want it don't apply.
Further more we are far from the only industry that looks for 6 months of experience before getting your paying gig, lots of those jobs have a salary ceiling much lower than we do as pilots.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

Does he pay a dispatcher's salary to the pilot working as a dispatcher?
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Rookie50 »

photofly wrote:Does he pay a dispatcher's salary to the pilot working as a dispatcher?
PF, from my chair, it's a clearly marked dispatch job, so it's dispatch pay (I'm assuming) Ad looks pretty transparent to me. (As a business owner) Apply, don't apply, but the job isn't a pilot job nor guarantee of anything, nor is any 250 -500 hour entiltled pilot entitled to a right seat anywhere automatically just for having a piece of paper.

Let me apply this to my industry, finance, because people make the same assumptions and mistakes.

Kids spend obscene amounts of money (or parents) on a Harvard MBA (I have no degree, btw), then apply to Goldman Sachs, Royal Bank dominion securities, et all, and state "I am Trader, I am a fully qualified analyst, see, look at my piece of paper"

You know what Goldman tells them? (You think aviation is rough) "you're nothing, lower then pond scum, here is a (minimally paid ) CLERK job, sit over there, shut up, push paper."

Shocking for these entitled kids -- and only the 4.0's from Harvard even get that shot!

Because on its own the MBA means little. Still have to pay your dues.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

Rookie50 wrote:
photofly wrote:Does he pay a dispatcher's salary to the pilot working as a dispatcher?
PF, from my chair, it's a clearly marked dispatch job, so it's dispatch pay (I'm assuming) Ad looks pretty transparent to me. (As a business owner) Apply, don't apply, but the job isn't a pilot job nor guarantee of anything, nor is any 250 -500 hour entiltled pilot entitled to a right seat anywhere automatically just for having a piece of paper.
I'm seeing it quite the other way. If it was a dispatch job at a dispatcher's salary there'd be no benefit to dangling the carrot of a flying job after a year. The headline of the thread is "Dispatch to Possible Entry Level Pilot". The implication is quite clear.

Does your industry advertise jobs as "Mailroom clerk to possible entry level Investment Analyst"? How about "Telephone receptionist to entry-level Investment Advisor"? I don't think it does.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by altiplano »

500 hours to dispatch for a year and maybe get the job? Maybe not? I recall the owner at NAC being a dick, I'd look elsewhere. Nothing too shit hot going on there...
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Liquid Charlie »

Echoing some others -- it's simple -- as long as a company stays within the labour laws they can set any terms for initial employment they want -- if you don't like the terms -- the choice is yours --

One area I think is illegal are the companies that require bonds on new types after you have already been employed for several years and have worked through the initial commitment -- it's discrimination pure and simple and in my mind contrary to the labour code -- problem is -- no one has the balls to challenge it for fear of their job and people in this position don't have deep enough pockets to deal with it on their own. People discuss the need for a College well maybe form a pilot advocate group - and us pass them small donations to fight this sort of bull sh1t -- just a rambling early morning thought -- maybe a thread is required -- :?:
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Rookie50 »

photofly wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
photofly wrote:Does he pay a dispatcher's salary to the pilot working as a dispatcher?
PF, from my chair, it's a clearly marked dispatch job, so it's dispatch pay (I'm assuming) Ad looks pretty transparent to me. (As a business owner) Apply, don't apply, but the job isn't a pilot job nor guarantee of anything, nor is any 250 -500 hour entiltled pilot entitled to a right seat anywhere automatically just for having a piece of paper.
I'm seeing it quite the other way. If it was a dispatch job at a dispatcher's salary there'd be no benefit to dangling the carrot of a flying job after a year. The headline of the thread is "Dispatch to Possible Entry Level Pilot". The implication is quite clear.

Does your industry advertise jobs as "Mailroom clerk to possible entry level Investment Analyst"? How about "Telephone receptionist to entry-level Investment Advisor"? I don't think it does.
I don't exactly know, I don't work for a big firm nor hire anyone, but its an obvious doorway to a higher qualified position, after a certain mandated period of abuse -- seriously -- where they vet out anyone who can't handle it. When they recruit on campus, thats exactly what they promise -- do X and Y will (likely) happen in due course. And due course can be years, while you are essentially some trader or analyst's personal slave.

Like aviation from their point of view, its a take it or leave it deal, cause their are many, many more MBA's (many with a snotty, entitled attitude, from my experience) than there are analyst or trading desks available.

And personally, I think the real world application for a Harvard MBA to the world of trading, is about as useful as a Kleenex to wipe your nose. Its just an admission ticket -- maybe.

See any parallels?
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I hope that these requirements were not invented to suit a particular TFW who happened to have a dispatchers's licence and 500 hour TT like Air Labrador did recently

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6k8xb4jjh9hpd ... 3.png?dl=0

"Some applicants did not have a Transport Canada dispatch Licence"
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by photofly »

Rookie50 wrote: I don't exactly know, I don't work for a big firm nor hire anyone, but its an obvious doorway to a higher qualified position, after a certain mandated period of abuse -- seriously -- where they vet out anyone who can't handle it. When they recruit on campus, thats exactly what they promise -- do X and Y will (likely) happen in due course. And due course can be years, while you are essentially some trader or analyst's personal slave.

...

See any parallels?
Unfortunately, yes. They're both potentially abusive situations leading to unhealthy workplaces and poor outcomes for employees - and therefore for the employer.

Goldman Sachs is a particularly nasty and unpleasant work environment (or was, when my peers and I left university). A good employer could probably learn a lot by finding out what Goldman does and doing exactly the opposite. Just because something is common or accepted in your industry is no reason to accept it here.

Now, I don't think NAC is recruiting for personal slaves for its management, so that's a bit of a red herring. It's good sense to have someone get a taste for northern life before putting them on the pilot roster. I object to under-paying them for the job they're going to do during that period.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Flypilot »

I don't see a problem with the ad. If I was the owner id also want to take a few months to see what the guy was made of before investing a bunch of money into training them. I met their new general manager a while ago and I really think he'd be a great guy to work for! The NAC pilots that I've met also seem like a group id like working with! If or when I'm looking for a job again NAC will be the first to get my resume.
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Re: Regarding Northern Air Charter job ad...

Post by Rookie50 »

"I object to under-paying them for the job they're going to do during that period."

Isn't that determined by a free and competitive system? Mcdonalds and Walmart just raised wages in the US, presumably because they couldn't hire people at the lower wages they were paying.
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