Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

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Apollo
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Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Apollo »

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Harbou ... story.html
Vancouver-based Harbour Air, the world’s largest seaplane airline, has entered into a strategic partnership with Zongshen Industrial Group to export its commuter float plane service to China.

The deal, which was approved by the Canadian Transportation Agency last week, will see Zongshen’s Tianchen General Aviation Co. own 49 per cent of Harbour Air Group, including 25 per cent of the voting shares. In return, Harbour Air will provide professional consulting to Tianchen, which is working to become the first general aviation company in China providing float-plane service to major cities. As part of the deal, Harbour Air will lend its name to a new airline, Harbour Air China.

The deal could result in the first of eight routes in China starting as early as next year, including service to Zongshen’s home city of Chongqing. In addition, Harbour Air will help train Chinese pilots, of which there is a shortage, in the art of flying seaplanes. It may provide some of its 80 Canadian pilots for the new routes over the short term.

Zongshen Industrial Group is owned by Chinese billionaire and entrepreneur Zuo Zongshen, who rose from relative obscurity as a motorcycle mechanic to become the leader of China’s largest maker of motorcycles. His company, which started in 1992 as China was beginning to encourage private businesses, now employs more than 25,000 people and produces four million motorcycles a year. It has diversified into a number of areas, including finance, mining, power machinery and real estate.

This isn’t Zuo’s first foray into B.C. business. He is developing over 600 acres of land at Cape Roger Curtis on Bowen Island. In 2013 he also signed a memorandum with the B.C. Institute of Technology to develop technology research and training for the liquefied natural gas (LNG) industry.

Greg McDougall, Harbour Air’s CEO, said the deal came about after China opened its military-controlled airspace under 10,000 feet to low-altitude civil flights. Despite its massive growth, China does not have an established and widespread general aviation industry other than large jet service to major cities.

With many major cities on waterways and lacking in expensive airport infrastructure, Zongshen Industrial Group saw Harbour Air’s seaplane-based commuter service as a potential model for expanding China’s general aviation, McDougall said.

“The plan is, and the reason Zou wants to become a part of this company, is he sees float planes as a way to introduce general aviation to China,” he said. “There aren’t any turboprops carrying passengers in China on a scheduled basis. So Zou has astutely recognized that seaplanes are the way to almost instantaneously provide that service because you don’t have to put in the infrastructure in terms of airports. The vast majority of Chinese cities have access to water so a dock is very easy. That gives you a jump ahead.“

Zuo was not available for an interview. In a statement, however, he said China faces major transportation challenges as it urbanizes.

“China’s rate of urbanization creates enormous demands for innovative transportation needs,” said Zuo. “In partnership with Harbour Air we will bring this unique airline model to China to give the Chinese people an efficient, affordable and sustainable way to travel and connect with each other.”

McDougall said the deal won’t alter Harbour Air’s Canadian operations other than to provide training opportunities to Chinese interns. “We will have to train the pilots here. Float plane training is very specific. It is not something you can do in a simulator.”

Under Canadian aviation rules, the majority of Harbour Air will remain owned by McDougall and his partner, Brent Davies. In order for Zongshen to acquire control, it would need to have Canadian owners, something that McDougall said is not in serious discussion.

“What they are buying into here is Canadian expertise and know-how. They know they can’t run this company because they need the Canadian expertise to do it. So, control to them has not come up as an issue. The interest is to access our expertise,” McDougall said.

“This is an unique situation in Canadian aviation history. The Chinese involvement in a Canadian airline has never happened before, to my knowledge. In fact it probably hasn’t even happened in North America.”

Harbour Air, with its distinctive blue and yellow livery, has become part of the fabric of B.C.’s homegrown aviation industry. McDougall started it in 1982 with two de Havilland Beaver airplanes and a bank loan backed by his mother’s investments. It now has more than 50 aircraft and 400 employees, and provides regularly scheduled service between Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo, Comox and other B.C. cities. It conducts about 60,000 flights a year and carries more than 420,000 passengers.

The backbone of the fleet is some older Beavers and Otters, and a series of newer 19-seat Twin Otters made by B.C.-based Viking Air, which bought the rights off Bombardier Inc, which acquired them when it assumed ownership of de Havilland Canada.

McDougall said Harbour air won’t be shipping any of its aircraft to China, as that country does not allow the import of aircraft older than 10 years. However, Tianchen may look to build its new fleet with Viking’s Twin Otters. A Chinese version of the Twin Otter, the AVIC Harbin 12-YE, may also be used.

But McDougall said he expects Zou may also look to manufacture aircraft or engines on his own, since he has the infrastructure in his plants in Chongqing.

I wonder if this will mean more jobs for HA?
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fish4life
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by fish4life »

As long as the Chinese pilots are just trained here and aren't taking jobs from Canadian pilots looking for the already hard float jobs with lower time. If they want on the line training then we can go there and do it.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by co-joe »

Sounds like a win win. Is HA still in bed with KBAL? Odd to call them "the worlds largest sea plane airline" on their own no?
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Meatservo »

"McDougall said the deal won’t alter Harbour Air’s Canadian operations other than to provide training opportunities to Chinese interns"

Doesn't sound like primary flight training to me. "Interns" sounds like line training.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by North Shore »

Assuming (I know...) that they sit in the right seat, and start at 200 hours, how many hours before they progress to the left?

Better question - what are guys getting cut loose on an Otter with nowadays? ~1500TT and ~1000 float pic? More? less?
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by awitzke »

Meatservo wrote:"McDougall said the deal won’t alter Harbour Air’s Canadian operations other than to provide training opportunities to Chinese interns"

Doesn't sound like primary flight training to me. "Interns" sounds like line training.
Given there are not really an float operations in Asia that pilots can gain experience with, having somewhere they can go for say 6 months to fly in the right seat and get operational time is not a bad idea. Like many countries, I'm sure they want to support local jobs and get Chinese pilots flying these planes in China VS. hiring expats as a long term solution. Look at Male for example and TMA. They are shifting to locally trained and born pilots.

What is likely going to happen is the right seat Twotter job here in BC will no longer be the way in with low time for Canadians. Instead there will be Chinese pilots flying in the right seat (it's a single crew aircraft anyways, is it not?).
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by moocow »

Whatever happen to the plan that have floats based out of Hong Kong?

http://fortune.com/2013/05/30/a-new-way ... -seaplane/

I'm getting a feeling that this HA deal with may be a pay-to-fly program for the Chinese pilots.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by AirFrame »

I wonder what a round to Hong Kong will cost? And how long it'll take in a Twotter... :P
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Meatservo »

awitzke wrote: What is likely going to happen is the right seat Twotter job here in BC will no longer be the way in with low time for Canadians. Instead there will be Chinese pilots flying in the right seat (it's a single crew aircraft anyways, is it not?).
It's certified for minimum 1 crew, yeah. Most if not all of them are equipped for two-crew operation however, and if your operation requires two crew, like if there are more than nine people aboard for instance, then it is two crew. When you get into a transport-category aeroplane, you learn that there is nothing about the plane itself that makes two pilots necessary, over and above some "rule" or other that makes it so. There are lots of "rules" in the commuter or air taxi class other than the minimum crew listed on the type certificate that make it legally necessary to have two pilots.

Unlike something like a caravan or a PC-12, there is no debate about whether an F.O. on a twin otter is a "real" crewmember, or whether he or she can log the time.

It is a real job, that is done by real pilots. If this job is being done by foreigners, then it's a "temporary foreign worker" situation. Period.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Rowdy »

North Shore wrote:Assuming (I know...) that they sit in the right seat, and start at 200 hours, how many hours before they progress to the left?

Better question - what are guys getting cut loose on an Otter with nowadays? ~1500TT and ~1000 float pic? More? less?
2500TT would probably be the lowest…

The beav was 1500TT and 1000 float pice last time I checked.

Also, KBAL and HA haven't been in any sort of partnership since Kenn himself was around. Other than the wet lease for PKS in 2009/10
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Boreas »

Meatservo wrote:Unlike something like a caravan or a PC-12, there is no debate about whether an F.O. on a twin otter is a "real" crewmember, or whether he or she can log the time.
So a F/O on a C208 or a PC12 isn't 'real', meanwhile a F/O on a Twin Otter is... because you said so and there is no debate about it.

I love this forum :)
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Heliian »

Everything on the west coast is being bought by the chinese, this is no surprise and I'm sure there will still be local jobs but now fewer.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Beefitarian »

In some ways this could increase local jobs. It could certainly create ferry jobs if they increase the fleet and move planes back and forth at all, at very least while building a fleet in China. This might even cause huge long term growth.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by jspitfire »

I don't see how this could reduce jobs in any way.
Apollo wrote:McDougall said the deal won’t alter Harbour Air’s Canadian operations other than to provide training opportunities to Chinese interns. “We will have to train the pilots here. Float plane training is very specific. It is not something you can do in a simulator.”
Yes it says interns, but then he compares it to sim training, which seems much more like basic float training. And after the Chinese pilot has his float rating, why not send him back to China to gain experience in the right seat in their Twin Otters? (assuming that's what they buy.) They'll have to have Canadian Captains over there for the first while anyways.
awitzke wrote:Given there are not really an float operations in Asia that pilots can gain experience with, having somewhere they can go for say 6 months to fly in the right seat and get operational time is not a bad idea. Like many countries, I'm sure they want to support local jobs and get Chinese pilots flying these planes in China VS. hiring expats as a long term solution. Look at Male for example and TMA. They are shifting to locally trained and born pilots.
Sure TMA is transitioning to local pilots, but that's been years in the making. And I don't believe any of them have ever been sent out of country for extended 'line training'?
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by WeGonRotate »

The Chinese are doing it big! Buying and investing in everything they can get their hands on. Haha
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Rowdy »

Buying and investing before their market and currency collapse!
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Meatservo »

Boreas wrote:
Meatservo wrote:Unlike something like a caravan or a PC-12, there is no debate about whether an F.O. on a twin otter is a "real" crewmember, or whether he or she can log the time.
So a F/O on a C208 or a PC12 isn't 'real', meanwhile a F/O on a Twin Otter is... because you said so and there is no debate about it.

I love this forum :)
Nope. Your reading comprehension wasn't 100% there. I said unlike the C-208 or PC-12 position, there is no debate about whether it's a real job. That's accurate. There have been lots of threads over the years on the subject of whether or not it makes sense to take one of these positions on a nine-passenger, single-engine plane, and whether it can be logged, and whether it's "real" experience. Look it up for yourself. I didn't say it wasn't a "real" position, I said that there has been debate on the subject. There has never been any debate here on the subject of whether or not the right seat in a DHC-6 is a "real" position. That's it. I made no statement that I didn't consider the right seat of a single engine plane to be "real".

I swear to god, some of the younger pilots here need to learn how to interpret written discourse a little more accurately.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Boreas »

Meatservo wrote:
Boreas wrote:
Meatservo wrote:Unlike something like a caravan or a PC-12, there is no debate about whether an F.O. on a twin otter is a "real" crewmember, or whether he or she can log the time.
So a F/O on a C208 or a PC12 isn't 'real', meanwhile a F/O on a Twin Otter is... because you said so and there is no debate about it.

I love this forum :)
Nope. Your reading comprehension wasn't 100% there. I said unlike the C-208 or PC-12 position, there is no debate about whether it's a real job. That's accurate. There have been lots of threads over the years on the subject of whether or not it makes sense to take one of these positions on a nine-passenger, single-engine plane, and whether it can be logged, and whether it's "real" experience. Look it up for yourself. I didn't say it wasn't a "real" position, I said that there has been debate on the subject. There has never been any debate here on the subject of whether or not the right seat in a DHC-6 is a "real" position. That's it. I made no statement that I didn't consider the right seat of a single engine plane to be "real".

I swear to god, some of the younger pilots here need to learn how to interpret written discourse a little more accurately.
Yes it was. But thanks for trying to clarify, old-timer ;)
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by Meatservo »

If you're determined to take umbrage, there's nothing I can do about it, young feller.
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Re: Chinese firm buys up 49% of Harbour Air

Post by currysonic »

http://globalnews.ca/news/2061303/vikin ... -billions/

Viking air to sell 50 Twotters over 5 years.

With 4 pilot positions per aircraft with 2 probably at least requiring Canadian captains maybe even a few Canadian FO's not to mention the order for Viking, I'd say this is good for Canada hopefully so far. I just hope the future dockhands who want to go into FO on HA's 2 twin otters won't be effected.

I'm hoping this will lead to more overseas jobs available to Canadians. Like the following DHC-6 job ad for China.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=103591

I have a feeling due to the high demand for pilots in China there will be a high turnover rate of future Chinese float turbine pilots, depending on the future economy of Asia and China.
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