Beren's Band roasts air ambulance service in the media

[CID]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFM_RswttU

So Good ole' boys white people don't vandalize eh? Just a native problem?

I stand by my earlier comments, CID.

And corruption, which is far from confined to native reserves, doesn't make a young man's death OK.

Umm....Vancouver isn't Regina. Vancouver isn't Prince Albert. Vancouver isn't Kenora. Vancouver isn't Winnipeg. And yes, corruption is everywhere but we're talking about FN communities in central Canada and how it applies to this tragedy in Berens River. You may want to google "straw man fallacy". And I also stand by my earlier statements Rookie, you don't have a clue.

[Rookie50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFM_RswttU

So Good ole' boys white people don't vandalize eh? Just a native problem?

I stand by my earlier comments, CID.

And corruption, which is far from confined to native reserves, doesn't make a young man's death OK.

Umm....Vancouver isn't Regina. Vancouver isn't Prince Albert. Vancouver isn't Kenora. Vancouver isn't Winnipeg. And yes, corruption is everywhere but we're talking about FN communities in central Canada and how it applies to this tragedy in Berens River. You may want to google "straw man fallacy". And I also stand by my earlier statements Rookie, you don't have a clue.

No; excuse me; we are not talking about corruption. We are talking about one incident where in some regard, which has yet to be determined, the system broke down. And trashing the native community as you are doing, is not a solution.

Your bias is obvious. And as far as the aviation component of this discussion, as I understand it you aren't a pilot, so It would appear you don't have a clue in that area.

[CID]

Who makes the decision how long to make a runway, or whether or not the runway is served by an RNAV approach, or the quality of the nighttime visual aids? Some of you guys are making it sound like the chief/band council are the ones in charge of making these decisions.

That's interesting. Do you really think that all the airports in the world are there because pilots decided they should be???

Any community with even the most basic organizational structure forms committees to address the community requirements and desires. Based on those basic requirements, the community leaders seek people like consultants or tradespeople or other specialists to help them develop infrastructure to meet their requirements and desires. Based on those efforts, a budget is set and the community goes about raising money for those services and has the infrastructure built. (or not)

Frankly, it's surprising that you think that the "chief" or "mayor" or "prime minister" for that matter does this sort of thing directly but it's absolutely accurate to state that ultimately it's the chief and council's responsibility to identify the community's requirements, develop a plan, budget money and execute. Unfortunately, they have been failing miserably for decades.

The federal government isn't just going to plant airports all over the place as it sees fit. That would be ludicrous. Did you know that there are remote communities of vacation cabins in the wilderness in Canada that have effective populations larger than Berens River and have NO airport to service them? Would those people be entitled to an airport "just because"? Should the government be scouting out these little population pockets and plunking airports down?

No; excuse me; we are not talking about corruption.

Part of the discussion is about the runway and it's inadequacy and why after many decades it's inadequate for the requirements of the communities. And THAT is the link to the corruption.

You think I'm racially biased and "bashing" native communities. At a human level I am quite sympathetic and I am not a racist. I am merely stating the truth. You should visit a reserve in the area some time. I think you will be quite shocked.

[Meatservo]

That's interesting. Do you really think that all the airports in the world are there because pilots decided they should be???

Of course not. Don't be obtuse.

Frankly, it's surprising that you think that the "chief" or "mayor" or "prime minister" for that matter does this sort of thing directly

I don't.

I'm afraid you mis-read the entire tone of my comment, which irritates me because I spent a long time typing it.

Obviously someone decided how long to make that runway and what infrastructure to install.

If it was the chief and council, then that's your problem right there. Chiefs don't tend to know much about runways. Obviously they had a consultant. Presumably that consultant knew what they were talking about. Maybe they didn't. They probably didn't have jets for ambulances back when the runway was built, and now they do. At some point the level of service changed as a result, and for some reason some people didn't know about it.

My only point was that somehow a couple of people talking out of their asses on the news has got everybody all worked up. Obviously in the case of the community the expectations versus the reality differ with respect to the capabilities of the planes and the airport. I don't find it surprising that a bunch of non-aviation people don't understand that, and I don't really think it's cricket blaming the "ignorance" of the community leadership for the basic lack of infrastructure here. Perhaps they are to be blamed somewhere along the way, for having a false impression of what their airport might and might not be good for, but my original question was, who is it who decides how long runways are, and whether there is an approach or not? Does a native chief even know what an "approach" is? Maybe before you blame her for not buying one, you should ask how in the world was she supposed to know they even existed? This whole thing is just a mis-understanding. Now that this has happened, maybe there will be some runway-building action. Often in this world, someone has to die before anything gets changed. Maybe they will name the new airport after him.

[CID]

They probably didn't have jets for ambulances back when the runway was built, and now they do.

Why should that be a factor? Manitoba Government Air Service has been running jets since 1981. Plenty of time to think about what the airport should look like. Regardless, Lifeflight isn't the only service available and arguably, the population of Berens River doesn't warrant expanding the runway to accommodate a Citation. If it's been "good enough" for decades, does it really need to be changed? And why stop there? Why not a 737 in case a mass evacuation is needed in the future?

We seem to be caught up in measures to prevent things from "ever happening again" rather than examining the current state of affairs and determining if it's adequate and logical.

You can personalize this by wondering if it was your family member waiting to be transported but that helps nobody. We would likely individually move heaven and earth to save our loved ones but it often isn't practical or affordable or logical to do so.

[Meatservo]

As it happens I agree with you there. I can't remember what this argument is about, to be honest.

[SuperchargedRS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFM_RswttU

So Good ole' boys white people don't vandalize eh? Just a native problem?

I stand by my earlier comments, CID.

And corruption, which is far from confined to native reserves, doesn't make a young man's death OK.++

Its called Racism. And you'd be far from the first.

Take a long look in the mirror.

Uh oh, conversation is over guys, some ass hat played the "you're a racist" card, and we all know what that means, anyone trying to defend the medevac is also a "racist", anyone not agreeing with Rookie is a "racist", and so on.

Might as well close the subject before someone's feelers get hurt

Honestly I don't really care what color a idiot is, I still call out anyone who demonstrates idiotic action, or inaction... like having a woefully inadequate lifeline/runway, a idiot.

It's not that I dislike someone's race or sex or whatever, I just don't like stupid, corrupt ineffective people.

[awitzke]

It's not uncommon for the majority of the inhabitants on these reserves to live in squalor while the chief and his/her supporters have big brand new houses and trucks and snow machines etc.

I've been only working here for a few weeks now but in and out of a ton of NW Ontario reserves. Talking to some of the other workers that go in and out, a lot (not all) of the communities are just like this. I had a hold in a reserve that is the highest suicide rate in Canada. The "houses" (read; shacks) I saw were a huge eye opener to how they live up there and should not be habitable. There are no treatment centers in a community of 3000, the power regularly goes out yet there is a 65 million dollar school being built. The priorities are whack out there.

[Rookie50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFM_RswttU

So Good ole' boys white people don't vandalize eh? Just a native problem?

I stand by my earlier comments, CID.

And corruption, which is far from confined to native reserves, doesn't make a young man's death OK.++

Its called Racism. And you'd be far from the first.

Take a long look in the mirror.

Uh oh, conversation is over guys, some ass hat played the "you're a racist" card, and we all know what that means, anyone trying to defend the medevac is also a "racist", anyone not agreeing with Rookie is a "racist", and so on.

Might as well close the subject before someone's feelers get hurt

Honestly I don't really care what color a idiot is, I still call out anyone who demonstrates idiotic action, or inaction... like having a woefully inadequate lifeline/runway, a idiot.

It's not that I dislike someone's race or sex or whatever, I just don't like stupid, corrupt ineffective people.

No where in any of my comments did I criticize the medevac Crew. Only the process. Disagree with me if you like. That's nothing to do with my comment.

[mattas350]

I've Been flying medevac around the region for four years now -One additional point here is that Lifeflight in Manitoba is the only carrier other than STARS that of a advanced/critical care level, the other operators are all basic or intermediate care level. This patient being talked about in the article sounds mostly definitely he would of required critical/advanced care equipment and personnel.

Why couldn't the nurse from YBV just jump in the nearest plane and go? Well I asked my flight nurse and she said it is against their nurses code of ethics - to put themselves in a situation where they are not properly equipped and trained for the level of care that is required for the patient and potentially cause more harm than good to the patient as a result.

Now on several occasions Lifeflight has chartered our medevac king air, kicked out our flight nurse out and brought their own med crew and additional equipment they required now granted this was not for intra Manitoba operations but for more longer distance missions mainly to do with organ transplants when the MB Lifeflight citations were all busy or unavailable.

MGAS does have a twin otter but with in being unpressurized and generally not configured for medevac this presents it's own issues.

Seems like more of a system problem, Lifeflight/MGAS needs to have a plan for the advanced/critical care patients in places that the citation cannot go and places that even the private operators will only go into under certain conditions (Poplar River at 2500ft long, Thicket Portage at 1800ft or so, etc), A PC-12 would be a great solution but apparently the PC-12 is not good enough for Manitoba even tho it has proven itself in more challenging regions by both private and government operators (RCMP, OPP)

[TeePeeCreeper]

It's not uncommon for the majority of the inhabitants on these reserves to live in squalor while the chief and his/her supporters have big brand new houses and trucks and snow machines etc.

I've been only working here for a few weeks now but in and out of a ton of NW Ontario reserves. Talking to some of the other workers that go in and out, a lot (not all) of the communities are just like this. I had a hold in a reserve that is the highest suicide rate in Canada. The "houses" (read; shacks) I saw were a huge eye opener to how they live up there and should not be habitable. There are no treatment centers in a community of 3000, the power regularly goes out yet there is a 65 million dollar school being built. The priorities are whack out there.

Give yourself another year or two, and you'll quickly become jaded dispite still feeling a mordicum of empathy. Your relatively new to flying in remote areas and will eventually "clue in" to what's "right" and what "is wrong" relatively speaking.

I think calling the "race card" is BS, both for the person (C/D was it?) whom first mentioned it and to Rookie (was it?) whom called that poster "racist".

Screw race, coulour or religion. Shit, while I'm at it... Screw the insinuation that because someone decides to live in the middle of no where, he or she should be willing to forgo or take exception to the reasonable expectation that they can expect half decent healthcare and medical services. We aren't talking about a "one off" hermit living in the bush here folks. Barens River is less than half way up Lake Winnipeg for Christ sakes!

At the end of the day, those whom have flown the bush know that nurses can sometimes be opiniated, however I doubt she "roasted the medivac crew" because she wanted to. It's a professional (nurse) cry to the band council, the chief and to the province to improve basic services to a community she/he was doing a rotation in and unfortunately witnessed a loss of life that was thought to be preventable.

All the best,
TPC

[A321]

As a nurse, pilot and someone who has enjoyed the delights of both Berens River and Poplar River…I feel for all professionals providing medical services to these reserve communities. I am not privy to the STARS contract awarded in Manitoba, but it looks like STARS operates both the BK117 and the AW139 in Alberta. I would guess the operating costs of the BK117 are half that of the AW139… however, if the AW139 had been selected for Manitoba, I believe it would have the legs to serve both Berens and Poplar River.

[Meddler]

I have to back up esp and redneck. The most unprofessional thing you can do as a medevac pilot is change how you fly based on the condition of the patient. You should not know, heli medevac Pilots down south are never told now, bc of their terrible safety record back in the day when they did know.

If you really think you should bust mins bc it's a medevac, you should not do medevacs. or any other flying, really. There is always a reason to push.

[Rockie]

To my knowledge there is nothing in the Air Regulations authorizing Medevac pilots to ignore those regulations or aircraft operating limitations absent an actual inflight emergency.

I would be very interested in hearing from an active RCAF SAR pilot on the rules they operate to, and under what conditions they would consider violating those rules to carry out a rescue.

[flyinthebug]

I have to back up esp and redneck. The most unprofessional thing you can do as a medevac pilot is change how you fly based on the condition of the patient. You should not know, heli medevac Pilots down south are never told now, bc of their terrible safety record back in the day when they did know.

If you really think you should bust mins bc it's a medevac, you should not do medevacs. or any other flying, really. There is always a reason to push.

I just quickly read the last 3 pages of this thread, and I cant see where anyone on either side of this issue suggested that breaking Regs was the way to fly Medevac? The only thing close to that was my comment that *I* would have launched *IF* the *ONLY* issue was I was 60' short of runway. That was MY personal comfort level...it may not be anyone elses...and there is a BIG difference between busting mins, and making a decision to not go into a strip that the same aircraft had been into dozens of times before. If the 60' was not an issue for all those missions, why was it suddenly an issue with this particular flight?

I do not know all the particulars about this flight, and I am NOT bashing the Citation crew for their decision oin any level...in fact I believe I stated that I respect their decision. That said, I do have a right to question why 60' of runway was suddenly an issue when it wasnt over the past years of service they have provided to Berens? Busting minimums, and not going because of 60' of runaway, IMO are two completely different beasts. Apples and oranges my friend...as no one suggested they should have busted mins and regs to get in...some of us just questioned why the mission has been flown safely and multiple times to YBV, and suddenly that night, the runway was 60' too short? I think we have a right to ask a reasonable question of the crew, without slamming them for their decision (which again, I fully respect as they had ALL the details and I have very few about that flight, that night).

More than all that, I want to know why Plan B took so long to implement...and I strongly believe someone dropped the ball.

Fly safe all.

[stef]

They need to use unlit portions of the runway for performance credit so they can't go at night.

[MUSKEG]

Ah so finally we have it. As I suspected the real reason was conveniently overlooked for sensationalism. Could it be that the response to her request for the jet was " we don't fly in Barons at night"? Leave out a few words and it sounds a lot different. Personally, as PIC I'm as responsible to get my ass and those in my crew home to our families as I am to get your ass to wherever you want to go. Nothing to be gained by going from hero to zero in emergency situations.

[5x5]

I just quickly read the last 3 pages of this thread, and I cant see where anyone on either side of this issue suggested that breaking Regs was the way to fly Medevac?

Maybe you should have read the first page? The following was what you wrote there. The first highlight you specifically said you broke regs. The second one you imply it, because how can you push weather besides going beyond minimums? And finally you said you had different limitations, but any medevac crew should pretty much be able to fly to minimums so what different limitations can you have?

Call me a cowboy if you like, but human life matters to me and always has. I take great pride in some of the missions I flew as a medevac pilot, and I know for a fact that my actions as a pilot, saved at least 4 lives that I was directly involved with. Yes we broke duty time, yes we pushed wx, but we felt we had a job to do...much like ambulance drivers on the street. If there is a snowstorm and the roads are closed because the cops say its too dangerous...do the ambulance drivers then just park their cars and let people die? No, they push past their 15 hour day and get the job done. People count on medevac pilots to be there for them and I always believed that we had "different" limitations than on a regular flight. Maybe I took my job too seriously? Maybe I was wrong to push even my own limits of comfort, but when a life is on the line, I feel we have to push to give them a shot. Yet even more than this, why wasn't a light twin at the ready, to cover in cases exactly like this one?? Something we should ALL think about!

My $0.02 worth.
Fly Safe all.
FTB

[flyinthebug]

I just quickly read the last 3 pages of this thread, and I cant see where anyone on either side of this issue suggested that breaking Regs was the way to fly Medevac?

Maybe you should have read the first page? The following was what you wrote there. The first highlight you specifically said you broke regs. The second one you imply it, because how can you push weather besides going beyond minimums? And finally you said you had different limitations, but any medevac crew should pretty much be able to fly to minimums so what different limitations can you have?

Call me a cowboy if you like, but human life matters to me and always has. I take great pride in some of the missions I flew as a medevac pilot, and I know for a fact that my actions as a pilot, saved at least 4 lives that I was directly involved with. Yes we broke duty time, yes we pushed wx, but we felt we had a job to do...much like ambulance drivers on the street. If there is a snowstorm and the roads are closed because the cops say its too dangerous...do the ambulance drivers then just park their cars and let people die? No, they push past their 15 hour day and get the job done. People count on medevac pilots to be there for them and I always believed that we had "different" limitations than on a regular flight. Maybe I took my job too seriously? Maybe I was wrong to push even my own limits of comfort, but when a life is on the line, I feel we have to push to give them a shot. Yet even more than this, why wasn't a light twin at the ready, to cover in cases exactly like this one?? Something we should ALL think about!

My $0.02 worth.
Fly Safe all.
FTB

All I will say is if you flew for a living 20+ years ago, you would know that it wasn't us pilots that WANTED to push limits at times...but Chief Pilots & Ops Mgrs back then (some not all) tended to do all the pushing for us. I had one CP say to me at the end of a LONG day, that we were the only medevac aircraft available in the province at that moment, and if we didn't go, someone would die. We took that seriously and yes we pushed duty times, and I pushed my personal limits as far as weather...but how does that equate to me busting mins? I may have pushed to get where I was going, but if my NDB approach had an MDA of 540', we didn't dip below published mins, even in the old days...at least I didn't. Some did and still do, but MDA/DH was always a number I didn't mess with. That was a hard number and I can honestly say I never once "dipped down" below mins to see if I could see a light. If there was no visual contact at MDA, we initiated the missed and got the hell outta Dodge. Why do some of you think we were all flying cowboys who didn't give a rats ass about regs? I said we pushed our personal limits, but never said I broke the regs or mins to get it in.

I stand by my comments on page 1...as I DO feel asd a medevac pilot, we have a very important job to do, when human life is on the line. Unless you have done it, you wouldn't understand what it feels like to have someone die in your aircraft, and have to console the Flight Nurse and often the families who came along on the flight to the hospital. If you are all flying around like zombies with no concern whether its pop and chips in the back or a humans life in your hands, you really shouldn't be flying medevac and my guess is you haven't flown a single mission in that capacity.

I am growing tired of this thread already. Someone at Lifeflight dropped the ball, and that's just a fact.

Attack me and my comments all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that someone died because Plan B wasn't in place...and I assure you that someone will be answering for that very soon.

Fly safe all.
FTB

[CID]

I am growing tired of this thread already. Someone at Lifeflight dropped the ball, and that's just a fact.

Uh...no. That can't be surmised by the information available. The guy driving the hit and run vehicle dropped the ball. THAT is a fact.