F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

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F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Troubleshot » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:11 am

In a mock dogfight over the Pacific Ocean, a test fight for Lockheed’s F-35 Lightning II, the most expensive weapon in U.S. history, the F-35 was bested by America’s trusty F-16 Fighting Falcon – first flown in 1974.

Read more: http://www.wearethemighty.com/usafs-350 ... z3ekcfAUAO

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/f-35-lightning ... on-1508880

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... d-by-f-16/
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Rockie » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:32 am

Read more: http://www.wearethemighty.com/usafs-350 ... z3ekhxY6Hh


"Essentially, the F-35 pilot couldn’t watch his six because his helmet was too big."

Even if his head and helmet were the size of a golf ball he still couldn't watch his six. The fuselage is in the way.

Cue the arguments that no one will get in an F35's six because they'll be dead long before they get a chance.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by niss » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:17 am

It's no big deal if he cant see behind him, just as long as he can join him in an inverted 4G dive.

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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by loopy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:39 am

20-30 years ago the 35 would not be given the "F" designation. It would have been an "A" for attack, not fighter. It's a bomb truck not a fighter. Canada and other NATO allies need to wake up and realize they are not purchasing an aircraft appropriate for air defence, they are buying an attack aircraft which needs other aircraft to defend it because it can't do a very good job of defending itself from aerial attack.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by niss » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:54 pm

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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:56 pm

Rockie wrote:Read more: http://www.wearethemighty.com/usafs-350 ... z3ekhxY6Hh


"Essentially, the F-35 pilot couldn’t watch his six because his helmet was too big."

Even if his head and helmet were the size of a golf ball he still couldn't watch his six. The fuselage is in the way.

Cue the arguments that no one will get in an F35's six because they'll be dead long before they get a chance.
How can that be so?

I thought that super duper helmet tied into external cameras that gave an UNIMPEDED 360 +/- 90 degree view outside the aircraft.

At least... ....that's what the brochure said. Maybe they need a backup camera like you can get on a Ford Fiesta... :lol: :roll:
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:13 pm

For the Fighter Drivers out there.

In the last 30 years how many air to air kills for any fighter engagement anywhere, have occurred without a positive visual ID before the trigger got pulled ?
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by trampbike » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:33 am

Why the F-35 vs F-16 article is garbage

http://fightersweep.com/2548/f-35-v-f-1 ... e-garbage/
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Rockie » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:49 am

trampbike wrote:Why the F-35 vs F-16 article is garbage

http://fightersweep.com/2548/f-35-v-f-1 ... e-garbage/
Many years ago I led a 4V4 against F-15's led by their resident weapons guy. In the course of one engagement my #4 (brand new guy) "killed" 3 of them because they didn't see him. While they lost the engagement their lead did his level best to win the debrief afterward and in doing so completely missed the inherent lesson.

The clean F-35 repeatedly and consistently lost maneuvering fights against an F-16 loaded up with external tanks. There's just no way to parse that into something it's not. The F-35 is useless as a fighter.

Its proponents are trying to win the debrief.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:42 pm

Rockie wrote:
trampbike wrote:Why the F-35 vs F-16 article is garbage

http://fightersweep.com/2548/f-35-v-f-1 ... e-garbage/
Many years ago I led a 4V4 against F-15's led by their resident weapons guy. In the course of one engagement my #4 (brand new guy) "killed" 3 of them because they didn't see him. While they lost the engagement their lead did his level best to win the debrief afterward and in doing so completely missed the inherent lesson.

The clean F-35 repeatedly and consistently lost maneuvering fights against an F-16 loaded up with external tanks. There's just no way to parse that into something it's not. The F-35 is useless as a fighter.

Its proponents are trying to win the debrief.
Judging a group from a single experiment, great.

As far as the F-35 goes, that's because the F-35 is not a fighter, it's a self-escort strike aircraft, capable of conducting Air-to-Air.

You know as well as I know that this was an early test flight with likely very canned setups. Likely a mix of offensive, defensive, slow speed and neutral sets. The aircraft didn't even have half the capabilities it has now. Not to mention the Viper driver had 1500 hrs in the Viper and the F-35 guy maybe had 100. Oh, and no TTPs have been developped by the Weapons School yet for the F-35 (the Viper benefits from 35 years of TTP development).

I don't think it's fair to compare the F-16 (designed with dogfight in mind) to the F-35 (designed with the multi-role in mind).

As far as kills BVR: Half of the kills during Op Desert Storm and all of them during Allied Force and some in between (Southern/Northern Watch)
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Rockie » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:46 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:I don't think it's fair to compare the F-16 (designed with dogfight in mind) to the F-35 (designed with the multi-role in mind).
It's totally fair. The F-16 is an exceptional multi-role aircraft that does everything except cost over 1 TRILLION dollars and fail to live up to expectations. They even trained for the strike role back in the day and may still.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:49 pm

It's an okay striker (payload anin't that great) and a good dogfighter. It was still designed for dogfight at its very beginning.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by xchox » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:29 pm

Gripen.

The only thing the cry baby's can come up with is it has one engine... Well Brazil uses it over the rainforest, Sweden & Czech Republic use it over identical terrain to ours. Add to that Seden uses there's over open ocean and operates on roads similar to ours. No need to land and refuel at a base or airport.

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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by howard40 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:45 pm

Way back when ... when Canada was buying 126 or whatever CF 18's, I thought they should buy say 60 odd CF18's and 200 odd F 16's for the same money.. Use the F 18's for "bush" and north stuff, and have a ball with the F 16's down south...
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by ahramin » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:58 pm

I only have one problem with the F-35: Price. Replace it with any other multi-role aircraft in production and you get massively more bang for your buck. But then that's really not surprising considering Lockheed got caught with a $100M "accounting error" during the contest with Boeing which was sweethearted under the rug. Fraud and scam are really the name of the game for the F-35.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Mostly Harmless » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:00 pm

Non F-35 question here for the experts...

Saw an F-22 heading out with an F-16 in trail to go practice (presumably)... how do those two stack up? Who wins that dog fight?

Just curious.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:12 pm

xchox wrote:Gripen.

The only thing the cry baby's can come up with is it has one engine... Well Brazil uses it over the rainforest, Sweden & Czech Republic use it over identical terrain to ours. Add to that Seden uses there's over open ocean and operates on roads similar to ours. No need to land and refuel at a base or airport.

Image
Go look at a map of the Czech Republic or Sweden superimposed over Canada. The toughest thing the Czech guy is going to have to deal with is which beer to order after he gets to the ground.

Where will you succumb to the elements first? The Rainforest? Or the tundra? Hypothermia will kill you in a matter of hours without heat and shelter. You think the SAR boys are that quick in the high arctic?
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by trampbike » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:31 pm

Rockie wrote:
trampbike wrote:Why the F-35 vs F-16 article is garbage

http://fightersweep.com/2548/f-35-v-f-1 ... e-garbage/
Many years ago I led a 4V4 against F-15's led by their resident weapons guy. In the course of one engagement my #4 (brand new guy) "killed" 3 of them because they didn't see him. While they lost the engagement their lead did his level best to win the debrief afterward and in doing so completely missed the inherent lesson.
Cool story bro...
Rockie wrote: The clean F-35 repeatedly and consistently lost maneuvering fights against an F-16 loaded up with external tanks. There's just no way to parse that into something it's not. The F-35 is useless as a fighter.

Its proponents are trying to win the debrief.
In 20 years, we can have this debrief.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by Mostly Harmless » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:34 pm

Mostly Harmless wrote:Non F-35 question here for the experts...

Saw an F-22 heading out with an F-16 in trail to go practice (presumably)... how do those two stack up? Who wins that dog fight?

Just curious.
Really? Not one of you? No experts willing to put forward an opinion or story?
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:48 pm

In reality, the enemy won't go after the F-22 or the F-35. The terrorists and revolutionaries will conduct business as usual in their caves and mud huts and if the US or NATO ever goes up against more than a ragtag Air Force, they will strike at the support infrastructure with far superior numbers than the sequestered US will be able to procure. Why shoot down an F-22 when shooting down a tanker or two will take down a whole wing of them?
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by ahramin » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:03 pm

You're forgetting China.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by co-joe » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:48 pm

China already owns the us. No need for war.

The viper is the only no compromise dogfight, air to air machine the us has ever made. (even the P-51 had compromises) It's a response to losing so many F-4's when the bean counters were positive that all head to heads engagements, would be beyond visual range hence the Phantom not getting a gun. Since then, every piece of winged military hardware has been a competition of just how many boxes can we tick. The F-35 is just a continuation of the be all things to all people stance. Fact is it's the jack of all trades master of none. It's no surprise that a viper can wax it in most scenarios involving a pure knife fight in a phone booth within visual range, but it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Hows the VTOL on the F-16? Is its radar even in the same realm? Isn't the F-35 supercruise? Which one has a larger radar ping? Internal weapons storage? How many F-16's did the navy or the marines buy again?

That said the price tag is retarded.
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by TeePeeCreeper » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:28 pm

Gents,

It's a moot point. If a C-150 can take out an F-16 anything (including the F-35) can!
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by niss » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:57 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:Gents,

It's a moot point. If a C-150 can take out an F-16 anything (including the F-35) can!
Oh @#$!.. I'm going to hell for laughing at this. :prayer:
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Re: F-35 can't take the F-16 in a dog fight?

Post by SuperchargedRS » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:25 am

The 35 is our export, kinda like the off brand name, but cheapened down crap you buy at walmart.

It sure as heck isn't a F22 (which we can't export).

Besides Canada is Americas hat, and we won't let anyone mess with our hat, you don't need any fighters :wink:
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