ATF Procedures

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photofly
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by photofly »

TC states that an IFR straight in CAN be c/out at an ATF IF the aerodrome is IFR Equipped and has air-ground communication if he does that have those two things then no IFR straight in
He mentioned RAC 9.13 (see below or in previous post)/
This is now even more ridiculous.

If TC permits a straight in approach and landing to any aircraft it must be permitted to all aircraft including those flying VFR, for there is nothing in the CARs to distinguish one from the other. If it is legal and possible for an IFR aircraft to land straight-in without conflict or violation it is obvious that an aircraft flying under the VFR can do the same.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rockie »

The IFR circling weather minimums for Burlington are 500 feet and 2 miles.
The IFR straight in weather minimums are 500 feet and 11/2 miles (higher ceiling due to remote altimeter setting)

I think we can all agree when the weather is at minimums for either a circling or straight-in approach there ought not be anybody in the circuit whether they have a radio or not. With that weather I wouldn't be too keen on doing a circling either

There are infinite possibilities above minimums WRT weather, and it's safe to say if an airplane was using the approach to get below a 2000 foot ceiling with 15 miles visibility the circuit may be teeming with light airplanes. If the guy is a light twin he would be well advised to cancel IFR and join them in the circuit - whereas if he's a faster jet the guy in the circuit next up would make the world run smoother if he just left the jet a gap to get down in.

Judgement...
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

photofly wrote:
TC states that an IFR straight in CAN be c/out at an ATF IF the aerodrome is IFR Equipped and has air-ground communication if he does that have those two things then no IFR straight in
He mentioned RAC 9.13 (see below or in previous post)/
This is now even more ridiculous.

If TC permits a straight in approach and landing to any aircraft it must be permitted to all aircraft including those flying VFR, for there is nothing in the CARs to distinguish one from the other. If it is legal and possible for an IFR aircraft to land straight-in without conflict or violation it is obvious that an aircraft flying under the VFR can do the same.
Photofly
Rereading my statement, I realized that I left a word out (in red)
Should read

TC states that an IFR straight in CAN be c/out at an ATF IF the aerodrome is IFR Equipped and has air-ground communication if he does not have those two things then no IFR straight in
He mentioned RAC 9.13 (see below or in previous
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by photofly »

I presumed you meant that. My comments stand.

Remember, great and mighty as TC inspectors are, they cannot make up laws as they see fit. Straight in for IFR means straight in for all. Hurrah!
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

photofly wrote:I presumed you meant that. My comments stand.

Remember, great and mighty as TC inspectors are, they cannot make up laws as they see fit. Straight in for IFR means straight in for all. Hurrah!
Ha ha ha well the poster and TC say otherwise .......... but I do like your democratic style !!!!!
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by AuxBatOn »

Hint: whatever the TC inspctors think, a poster is not regulatory, unless CARs reference to it..
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

AuxBatOn wrote:Hint: whatever the TC inspctors think, a poster is not regulatory, unless CARs reference to it..
Yup that's what I said in the beginning of the whole thread
AIM , RAC etc are not regulatory ...... only CAR's are ......that's the whole dilemma
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by LousyFisherman »

VFR minima. no wind
Low power NORDO taking off on 35
IFR breaks out of cloud straight in 17
IFR pilot fails to see NORDO in ground clutter as it has already taken off, gained 50 feet and possibly wandered to the side of the runway.

Does the NORDO pilot see him?
How long does each pilot have before there is a collision?
Which plane would you like to be in?

IFR straight in to an unmanned ATF in VFR conditions sounds foolish to me. Worse, I think it endangers others.

IMHO
YMMV
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rockie »

With regard to the CAR's, where it says "shall" or "shall not" there is no discretion unless you have some waiver or ops spec permitting something different - or you're willing to declare an emergency.

Where it says "should" or "should not" you can infer "grey area" and "use your own judgement". Where the CAR's don't say anything you can infer the same thing.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rookie50 »

Rockie wrote:The IFR circling weather minimums for Burlington are 500 feet and 2 miles.
The IFR straight in weather minimums are 500 feet and 11/2 miles (higher ceiling due to remote altimeter setting)

I think we can all agree when the weather is at minimums for either a circling or straight-in approach there ought not be anybody in the circuit whether they have a radio or not. With that weather I wouldn't be too keen on doing a circling either

There are infinite possibilities above minimums WRT weather, and it's safe to say if an airplane was using the approach to get below a 2000 foot ceiling with 15 miles visibility the circuit may be teeming with light airplanes. If the guy is a light twin he would be well advised to cancel IFR and join them in the circuit - whereas if he's a faster jet the guy in the circuit next up would make the world run smoother if he just left the jet a gap to get down in.

Judgement...
And....Nobody; including fleet, has told me how I, let alone the citation, is supposed to legally break off in Burlington (my home base) to circle...to join the pattern full of aircraft on right downwind for 32. At 600 feet or even 1000, for that matter. Look at the terrain to the west. 1000 is VFR, BTW. Anyone, would you approach Burlington from the west (or north) at 1000 AGL, Nordo, or even no terrain GPS?

Please fleet resolve this question if straight in approaches are "illegal" -- look at the plate and tell me how to legally land on 32. Simple question. And assume you can't cancel IFR in air, Toronto can't hear you.

Burlington has air to ground....but they aren't there often at night or scuzzy weather.

Obvious answer is always to do what is practicable and safe -- which is how I fly and I cancel IFR into Burlington almost every time -- but this is a regulatory discussion, so looking for a regulatory answer--- :mrgreen:
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

Rookie50 wrote:
Rockie wrote:The IFR circling weather minimums for Burlington are 500 feet and 2 miles.
The IFR straight in weather minimums are 500 feet and 11/2 miles (higher ceiling due to remote altimeter setting)

I think we can all agree when the weather is at minimums for either a circling or straight-in approach there ought not be anybody in the circuit whether they have a radio or not. With that weather I wouldn't be too keen on doing a circling either

There are infinite possibilities above minimums WRT weather, and it's safe to say if an airplane was using the approach to get below a 2000 foot ceiling with 15 miles visibility the circuit may be teeming with light airplanes. If the guy is a light twin he would be well advised to cancel IFR and join them in the circuit - whereas if he's a faster jet the guy in the circuit next up would make the world run smoother if he just left the jet a gap to get down in.

Judgement...
And....Nobody; including fleet, has told me how I, let alone the citation, is supposed to legally break off in Burlington (my home base) to circle...to join the pattern full of aircraft on right downwind for 32. At 600 feet or even 1000, for that matter. Look at the terrain to the west. 1000 is VFR, BTW. Anyone, would you approach Burlington from the west (or north) at 1000 AGL, Nordo, or even no terrain GPS?

Please fleet resolve this question if straight in approaches are "illegal" -- look at the plate and tell me how to legally land on 32. Simple question. And assume you can't cancel IFR in air, Toronto can't hear you.

Burlington has air to ground....but they aren't there often at night or scuzzy weather.

Obvious answer is always to do what is practicable and safe -- which is how I fly and I cancel IFR into Burlington almost every time -- but this is a regulatory discussion, so looking for a regulatory answer--- :mrgreen:
I am very familiar with the Burlington Traffic patterns having worked there and learned to fly there .
However , not being an IFR Pilot I would not feel qualified to tell you what to do in the situation you describe.
I suggest you ask TC but most people here seem to have no trust in their responses so I doubt you will want to do this
Still it would be nice if you did and posted their response here for all of us.
With that said I guess you do what you feel is safe and hope for the best for yourself and others in the air around you.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

Rockie wrote:With regard to the CAR's, where it says "shall" or "shall not" there is no discretion unless you have some waiver or ops spec permitting something different - or you're willing to declare an emergency.

Where it says "should" or "should not" you can infer "grey area" and "use your own judgement". Where the CAR's don't say anything you can infer the same thing.
I get what your saying but in some ways it makes me feel uncomfortable...... seems like an avoidance of the obvious and a bit of a cop out.
For the most part , the majority of pilots out there are not going to get that picky about the wording .
The Rules , instruction , procedure how ever it's spun are published for a reason ....as suggested safe practices/good airmanship and further more most pilots are going to use them and are expecting others to use them also.
The above statement just smacks of an excuse to bend good airmanship practices.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rookie50 »

Fleet -- respectfully --- this topic you are initiating is on proper ifr procdedures at an atf. You're a very experienced pilot and are obviously familiar with Burlington. So -- I'd like your regulatory opinion on how I would circle to land at Burlington legally on 32, under IFR rules.

Surely if straight in is prohibited -- and often there is no air to ground there -- must be a legal method.

Simple scenario! Its 1000 and 3 miles. No wind. No ground station active either. Fine circuit weather. Planes in the pattern. (potentially!) I'm arriving from London. How do I approach and land? Anyone? -- without a straight in approach.

Note --Can't cancel IFR in the Air. (on final anyway) Toronto can't necessarily hear you - below 1000 AGL --
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by fleet16b »

Rookie50 wrote:Fleet -- respectfully --- this topic you are initiating is on proper ifr procdedures at an atf. You're a very experienced pilot and are obviously familiar with Burlington. So -- I'd like your regulatory opinion on how I would circle to land at Burlington legally on 32, under IFR rules.

Surely if straight in is prohibited -- and often there is no air to ground there -- must be a legal method.

Simple scenario! Its 1000 and 3 miles. No wind. No ground station active either. Fine circuit weather. Planes in the pattern. (potentially!) I'm arriving from London. How do I approach and land? Anyone? -- without a straight in approach.

Note --Can't cancel IFR in the Air. (on final anyway) Toronto can't necessarily hear you - below 1000 AGL --
ZBA seems to be a special case for sure
As I have stated , I am not an IFR do not feel I have a qualified opinion on this.
The most I can say is if TC has come up with a "recommended procedure" in the name of safety and one that you know most are going to follow, then why would you go against the grain ? Most likely that is in your opinion the safest procedure and as the pilot ultimately your call .
In reality do you not feel that you should ask this thru official channels ?

I started this thread to discuss ATF Procedures in general but it has morphed into a discussion centered around IFR procedures.
Not my original intention but an interesting discussion that looks at both views
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by photofly »

CARS never say "should". CARs are mandatory. The AIM has all the touchy feel should stuff.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:CARS never say "should". CARs are mandatory. The AIM has all the touchy feel should stuff.
You're right of course. Perhaps I should have said "in Transport Canada parlance".
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by goingnowherefast »

Rookie50 wrote:Fleet -- respectfully --- this topic you are initiating is on proper ifr procdedures at an atf. You're a very experienced pilot and are obviously familiar with Burlington. So -- I'd like your regulatory opinion on how I would circle to land at Burlington legally on 32, under IFR rules.

Surely if straight in is prohibited -- and often there is no air to ground there -- must be a legal method.

Simple scenario! Its 1000 and 3 miles. No wind. No ground station active either. Fine circuit weather. Planes in the pattern. (potentially!) I'm arriving from London. How do I approach and land? Anyone? -- without a straight in approach.

Note --Can't cancel IFR in the Air. (on final anyway) Toronto can't necessarily hear you - below 1000 AGL --
Burlington is below the Class C rings at Toronto, once below 2500asl (most likely outside the FAF) you leave class C airspace. I don't have the proper maps because I never fly there, all I have is what I can find online. So is the actual airport in Class E or G airspace? If it's class E, your options are land straight in or go missed. If it's class G, then you don't need a clearance, you can break off the approach and go VFR whenever you enter VMC.

Having said that, I know there's 2 King Airs based there, so the frequent VFR pilots are probably used to accommodating the occasional straight-in fast traffic like a King Air and such.

I used http://www.skyvector.com and http://www.ivao.ca/charts/CAP4/CZBA.pdf. Neither is official, and probably long out of date.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rookie50 »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:Fleet -- respectfully --- this topic you are initiating is on proper ifr procdedures at an atf. You're a very experienced pilot and are obviously familiar with Burlington. So -- I'd like your regulatory opinion on how I would circle to land at Burlington legally on 32, under IFR rules.

Surely if straight in is prohibited -- and often there is no air to ground there -- must be a legal method.

Simple scenario! Its 1000 and 3 miles. No wind. No ground station active either. Fine circuit weather. Planes in the pattern. (potentially!) I'm arriving from London. How do I approach and land? Anyone? -- without a straight in approach.

Note --Can't cancel IFR in the Air. (on final anyway) Toronto can't necessarily hear you - below 1000 AGL --
Burlington is below the Class C rings at Toronto, once below 2500asl (most likely outside the FAF) you leave class C airspace. I don't have the proper maps because I never fly there, all I have is what I can find online. So is the actual airport in Class E or G airspace? If it's class E, your options are land straight in or go missed. If it's class G, then you don't need a clearance, you can break off the approach and go VFR whenever you enter VMC.

Having said that, I know there's 2 King Airs based there, so the frequent VFR pilots are probably used to accommodating the occasional straight-in fast traffic like a King Air and such.

I used http://www.skyvector.com and http://www.ivao.ca/charts/CAP4/CZBA.pdf. Neither is official, and probably long out of date.
Yes, that's reality.

But this whole thread is a debate on the regs, that straight in isn't permitted. Hence I'm curious how legally at Burlington , if "straight in" isn't allowed in VMC, which at 1000 it is VMC, one breaks off to join a VFR circuit. Can't be done because legally you would have to cancel IFR first, maybe you get toronto maybe you don't. But can't legally circle to the west (with good reason)
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by goingnowherefast »

As I've said a couple pages ago, the CARs state that all turns must be to the left (or right if specified). HOWEVER, the is no CAR that say you are REQUIRED to make any turns.

CARs also say you have to "conform to or avoid the circuit". If I can't conform to an established circuit because of differences in aircraft speed and operational requirements, then you have to avoid the parts of the circuit you can't conform to. In many cases, the only part of the circuit you can conform to is the final leg.

Good airmanship states that you should follow the TC posters that fleet16b received from TC whenever practicable. It is also good airmanship to fly stabilized approaches. There is a big push from TC for stabilized approaches, and it is written into SOPs and company policy for most commercial operators. Many will consider it better airmanship to fly a well stabilized approach than to burn around a massive circuit, confusing a bunch of students just to follow a poster that's not designed for fast IFR type aircraft. I'm glad we agreed that it is a nice thing to do if you let the bigger airplane go first on a straight in final.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by photofly »

goingnowherefast wrote: CARs also say you have to "conform to or avoid the circuit". If I can't conform to an established circuit because of differences in aircraft speed and operational requirements, then you have to avoid the parts of the circuit you can't conform to. In many cases, the only part of the circuit you can conform to is the final leg.
No they don't. If you're going to quote regulations you have to get them right. They say you have to " conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation."

If they meant circuit, that's the word they would have used. The pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation may not be the circuit. And there may be no other aircraft in operation in which case you don't have to conform to anything and can fly in any way you like. Anyone arriving later now has to conform with what you're doing.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rookie50 »

Still no one hung up on the regulatory bent has answered my question. How would one legally circle for Burlington (and I imagine many other fields) to conform to existing traffic already there?
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by goingnowherefast »

Rookie50 wrote:Still no one hung up on the regulatory bent has answered my question. How would one legally circle for Burlington (and I imagine many other fields) to conform to existing traffic already there?
If you are flying the RNAV 32 and are circling for Runway 32, you could overfly the field, turn right, keeping the field on your right side, circling to the north east, and turn right onto final. Although, you must be on crack if you expect a King Air to do that in 1.5 , 2 or even 3 miles visibility, especially at minimum circling altitude. But that's what I would do if I broke out at 700' and saw a NORDO 1 mile in front of me and HAD to circle for some reason. NORDO is touching down as I'm overflying directly overhead the field. Alternatively, I could just fly the missed approach and try again.
photofly wrote:
goingnowherefast wrote: CARs also say you have to "conform to or avoid the circuit". If I can't conform to an established circuit because of differences in aircraft speed and operational requirements, then you have to avoid the parts of the circuit you can't conform to. In many cases, the only part of the circuit you can conform to is the final leg.
No they don't. If you're going to quote regulations you have to get them right. They say you have to " conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation."

If they meant circuit, that's the word they would have used. The pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation may not be the circuit. And there may be no other aircraft in operation in which case you don't have to conform to anything and can fly in any way you like. Anyone arriving later now has to conform with what you're doing.
You make a good point.
If it's 1000' and 3sm, and there's 4 airplanes stacked up holding at the initial fix waiting for the approach clearance, "the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft" is the RNAV 32, then the NORDO aircraft has to avoid until he can be sure he will fit between the IFR traffic. Now I understand he doesn't know there's 4 airplanes lined up for the approach, but it's his fault for flying in weather where he can't see them, and his fault for not having a radio and being aware of them. Although I'm sure this situation is extremely rare. If there was frequently this much traffic, Nav Canada would implement a MF, and there would be no NORDO.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by Rookie50 »

Going, --- me too. Do what you have to do. ----

You make my point exactly. You're a NORDO and you're exercising that poor airmanship to boot to choose to be up in crap weather at a busy GTA or other regional ATF where IFR's aren't uncommon, you're on your own as far as I'm concerned.

And if I was flying a King air and had to do a stressful last second circling approach at speed like described above, because of you at a confined place like Burlington, I'd be less than pleased.

The other point it's impossible for a straight in to be "illegal" or an approach like ZBA's in particular, (likely many others though!) wouldn't exist of course, as has been stated before, even in technical VMC.
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Re: ATF Procedures

Post by hairdo »

If you haven't planned for the circle, then you probably shouldn't circle. If conditions are reasonable, you're in class G airspace, and you feel you can maneuver visually to avoid traffic, fine. Otherwise, you should probably go missed. Is it annoying if you have to miss for a NORDO aircraft? Yep. Shit happens.
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