Keystone

[single_swine_herder]

Such as the legendary one that used to operate a somewhat large company in YTH, lost their AOC that has moved south after being in Ontario Region for a while.

[Gear Jerker]

I wish some of you would get off your high horses. Did you all have some master plan for your career, which you followed to a T from day one, without making any mistakes, or having any challenges along the way? I happen to know some of these recently unemployed great people, and I can tell you with certainty that they would excel in any company, but the way of the world is: right place at the right time, and if you don't meet the requirements, you don't get the job. Nobody works for these companies as a plan A.

I recently met someone who got hired at Air Canada at age 19 with 1000hrs, back in the day. Wouldn't that be great!? Some people get lucky early on, while most just try their damnedest to get on with a good company, but at some point, you need to get your ass in the air. And when you do, be prepared to say no and stand your ground if necessary.

I have yet to meet anyone with thousands of hours who is established and comfortable in their career who doesn't have stories from early on where they've done things that they knew at the time were wrong, or they weren't comfortable with, scared themselves half to death, and learned from as a result - namely to give less f***s about consequences, if they made a decision that erred on the side of safety.

In a perfect world nobody would work for Keystone, Skycare, Wapiti, etc. and they would go out of business within weeks, but in reality there will continue to be good people trying to make it in a very tough industry that elect to grin and bear it for a while, like we all have in some form or another. Would you divorce your wife/husband because you found out they once dated an asshole?

[trey kule]

Nobody works for these companies as a plan A.

Nobody should work for these companies at all. Rationalize it however you want, but if you stay more than a week or two when you find out what type of a company they are you are part of the problem.
And just like these companies should not be in business, I dont think the pilots that worked for them, and allowed them to stay in business until the accidents happened should be in aviation either.
The poor desparate me , what was I to do, excuse falls on deaf ears here.

Btw...they are not "good" people who will support sleazy companies by flying for them...dont care how you spin it.


The owners of these companies are not busting minimums, overunning runways, flying without proper fuel,overweight. Or crashing and killing people. Their pilots are. So dont give me the poor little victim pilot excuses. They are gang members carrying out their orders.

In the past we have bounced people to the top of the list because their resumes showed they worked for one of these sleazeball outfits just long enough to realize what was going on...I respect that, and I think most of the old guys in the industry who hire do as well.

And so endth my rant..

[iamnomaverick]

Yup. When you see a man down you kick him in the nuts, don't help him up eh?! You guys are true gentlemen.

I happen to be friends with many of these folks @ Keystone and I am proud to call them friends. I am sure some of the many non-jaded people in the industry will take them on.

[AWOS]

I heard they sold the King Airs and OC is gone and company shut down permanently.

I heard this too, along with the 99. I've seen what kind of shape some of those machines are in - they belong in a Walmart bargain bin.

[toelessjoe]

So what finally did them in? Don't tell me Transport finally stepped up....

- Toeless.

[FOD_Vacuum]

Nobody works for these companies as a plan A.

Nobody should work for these companies at all. Rationalize it however you want, but if you stay more than a week or two when you find out what type of a company they are you are part of the problem.
And just like these companies should not be in business, I dont think the pilots that worked for them, and allowed them to stay in business until the accidents happened should be in aviation either.
The poor desparate me , what was I to do, excuse falls on deaf ears here.

Btw...they are not "good" people who will support sleazy companies by flying for them...dont care how you spin it.


The owners of these companies are not busting minimums, overunning runways, flying without proper fuel,overweight. Or crashing and killing people. Their pilots are. So dont give me the poor little victim pilot excuses. They are gang members carrying out their orders.

In the past we have bounced people to the top of the list because their resumes showed they worked for one of these sleazeball outfits just long enough to realize what was going on...I respect that, and I think most of the old guys in the industry who hire do as well.

And so endth my rant..

Before I start here, I want to make it crystal clear that I am not defending Keystone and the owner in any way. Some things you said here I can agree with, and some things I don't. You are making a very bold statement that all pilots from this company should not be in this industry, if that is what you are trying to say. I have unfortunately worked for Keystone and I have since moved on to bigger and better things, as have all other pilots who I worked with. I would also like to know which operators have so called "blacklisted" the pilots, because to tell you the truth, I don't know of a single one since pilots have been hired almost everywhere I can think of.

A little advice, I suggest you get your facts and figures together before slamming those that worked there. We had the same TC and approved examiners on our rides as the other operators in the Winnipeg area. It was my first job and stayed there because it allowed me to live a life in a city, rather than the bush. I did not like management and had huge problems with them, which is why I left. I flew by the book, stood my ground and often refused flights due to wx etc.

A good Captain is one that stands his/her ground, uses good judgement, is a team player, listens to others, doesn't cut corners, steps in and speaks out in dangerous situations, teaches new pilots the ropes with respect and courtesy they deserve, have a constant and open communication to the chief pilot, submits SMS, operates aircraft with POH and CARs limits etc. All these things I did, and it was not taken well with the "boss", and there was an expectation "to get the job done" like many other operators. Using due diligence, checking weather and NOTAMS etc and standing my ground was a daily thing for me, and I got too fed up with the BS which made me quit in the end. I had a ton of fun working with my coworkers and was well respected, and I was sad to leave but happy at the same time to move on.

You are what you make out of the situation. It can go two ways; you are a follower and do what management says, OR you have a brain and realize you are the one responsible if anything happens.

But if you think I should be blacklisted and tossed out of this industry, because I was a "gang member carrying out orders" then please get to know me a little better before you make these comments. The guys I flew with were actually "good" because, you know what? I worked with them and can say that because I know them very well. Feel free to PM me if you like.

[switchflicker]

Good post FOD vac

[upintheair_]

Anyone know who might have purchased the King Airs? That's not really a small purchase and I'm sure someone, somewhere might have and idea where they went. The registry still shows them as Keystone aircraft, but that can take a bit of time to update.

[North Shore]

Most of the "gang members" that I met when the CYTH gang was in operation are now siitting in left seats at Westjet, or getting close to them at AirCanada...

[trey kule]

FOD, I think you might have cherry picked what I posted. Read again the part where I said I respected those that got out.

As to all the left seaters...lets pause for a moment and give some thought to the families of the pax that were killed, or pax who were hurt. To the higher insurance costs imposed on everyone because of the accidents...and these were all the result of pilots....not the company. They were not the impressive pilots like FOD. They were the I'll do anything to advance my career pilots.
Smart and ethical ones quit. Scum stayed on, and the lucky ones lived and moved on

Yes, my statements were strong and bold. We need to get the message through to pilots that they are not hapless victims of circumstance, but willing whores who will do what they have to to build hours and advance their career . Until that message gets through, these companies will continue to be able to operate..the rationalizations have to stop.

And that is not going to happen until employers in the industry make a statement that if you work for one of the slimeball companies (and dont quit over difficulties) there will be consequences.
The majors dont give a rats ass, as they are destination companies, but I hope the rest of the industry would.

I will say it again. These kind of companies can only exist with the aid of pilots willing to do anything ,
Including endangering their pax lives.

Quite glad I am not in that part of the industry anymore.

[Magnetron]

removed by poster

[trey kule]

Wow, a great bunch of Captains....hard to understand why TC would want to shut them down...
Oh wait, lets have a quick look.

TSB A02C0124... The Pilot departed without a working autopilot contrary to CARS.
The PIC did not carry adequate fuel.
The PIC flew the approach to high, to fast, and did not advise ATC of his critical situation in a timely manner.
2 people seriously hurt.

TSB A12C005. The Pilot conducted an approach to an airport that did not have IF rules in place , in adverse weather, and continued in icing conditions...4 fatal, including the pilot

No question in my mind this is 100% the company's fault. What were those poor pilot victims to do?

But of course that has all changed. All the pilots now stand up to the company and do not do any dangerous or illegal things....A bit confusing why you would say leaving was a blessiinh

I wish you no ill Magnetron but dont try to blow smoke up my butt. your integrity was pretty much gone when you went to work for them, and continued working for them.

The company only was able to continue to operate as long as they did because some pilots could rationalize working there. And as long as there are pilots that a re willing to do that, companies like this will continue to appear.

If you were running a company that paid and trated their pilots well, had an extensive training program, and had to deal with customers who wanted the same price as slimballs company, and had to cancel flights or limit loads that slimeball's pilot would take, wouldyou want to reward one of the pilots who helped them to stay in business by hiring them?

I guess you will get the answer to that question soon enough. But dont worry, there all still operators out there that will hire the alumni....they know what kind of pilots they are.

Good luck.

[Ifly]

I think the bigger issue here that everyone is overlooking is that the requlator has completely abandoned it's duties with regards to Keystone. The current environment in Canada allows these operators to endanger the travelling public and exploit young pilots that are just trying to get a foothold. Transport Canada is where the true shame lies.

[switchflicker]

Last I heard the Operating Certificate is under suspension. Could it be that Transport Canada was the ones to do the deed? The wheels of justice turn too slow for some, and too fast for others, but thank goodness TC doesn't take policy from the fine council of AvCanada.

[ei ei owe]

Having tried to work at some respectable airline only to get jumped in seniority on the ramp by a female pilot.

Why even mention that? Makes you sound more desperate to have your view points accepted.

[aviatrix444]

Having tried to work at some respectable airline only to get jumped in seniority on the ramp by a female pilot. And so jumping on to the opportunity I got here.

I only accept employment offers that force my male counterparts to go work at sub-par operations.

[cdnpilot77]

Hahahaha

To the person who posted that, maybe she was just a better worker and more well liked and more respectable. Well, Clearly more respectable if you then left a reputable airline to work for these guys.

[Magnetron]

removed by poster

[esp803]

They actually called me again this year for a flying position but I had just gotten captain and needed to make some pic hours.

Nobody "needs" PIC hours, left seat, right seat, I've found that work ethic, personality, how you sell yourself and who you know trump hours nine times out of ten. Exceptions are probably giant operations with HR departments, but they will always be around, working for sketchy operates may mean that your ass isn't always around.

E