Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

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TeePeeCreeper
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Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/wo ... google.ca/

This story is going to be interesting to watch unfold!
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

It's good that someone finally has the balls to stand up to Russia. Just a pity their pilots had to die. The rebels on the ground are obviously too dumb to realise they have more to gain by keeping the pilots alive than killing them.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by rigpiggy »

FWIW Russia says it was shot at 1 km from the border and crashed 4km inside syria. Ain't Physics a bitch
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PilotDAR
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by PilotDAR »

Hmmm, a bit of a twist for US Thanksgiving....
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

rigpiggy wrote:FWIW Russia says it was shot at 1 km from the border and crashed 4km inside syria. Ain't Physics a bitch
Yep, the missile was fired while it was over Turkish territory, but didn't hit it until it had left Turkish airspace:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

Russia has published an alternative track for the plane showing it was nowhere near Turkish airspace. However it seems a little unlikely that Turkey would do something that dumb with NATO permission. Russia doesn't exactly have a good record of accurate reporting.
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

The Russians crossed less than 2 mile of airspace. Yet Turkey claims 5 mins? Pretty sure it wasn't an airship the Russians were flying. Did Russia provoke, sure, perhaps not intentional given the look at the rest of the flight path. Was the Turkey shooting justified? Absolutely not! The rebels killing the pilots makes them everyday thugs, glad our country is supporting thugs and a trigger happy nation :roll:

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirMail wrote:The Russians crossed less than 2 mile of airspace. Yet Turkey claims 5 mins? Pretty sure it wasn't an airship the Russians were flying. Did Russia provoke, sure, perhaps not intentional given the look at the rest of the flight path. Was the Turkey shooting justified? Absolutely not! The rebels killing the pilots makes them everyday thugs, glad our country is supporting thugs and a trigger happy nation :roll:
No, they said 17 seconds. The 5 minutes you are referring to is how long they were given warnings *before* entering Turkish airspace.

Russia are the real thugs here, believing they can invade other countries, work with rebels who then shoot down airliners full of passengers, and lie about it all. It might be a small incursion, but Turkey has the right to defend their airspace, and their people. (Part of the reason for them shooting down the plane is that Russia was bombing Turkman civilians in Syria, rather than or as well as ISIS).

The Turkmen shooting the pilot is unfortunate and dumb, although if someone is bombing your people you'd probably do the same. The Turkmen are one of the few rebel groups (along with Kurds) who we should definitely be helping rather than bombing.
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

CpnCrunch wrote:No, they said 17 seconds. The 5 minutes you are referring to is how long they were given warnings *before* entering Turkish airspace.
Sorry read another article that clarified that. Warnings given 8km from their airspace. So ok 10km total. Lets say it wasn't even 5 mins, just 3. That's 321kph or 178kts. Again, the math doesn't add up now does it. Even a 20km "buffer" zone which we all know would not apply here, and at 3 mins, that's 350kts, at around FL200. More possible, but again we know that the warnings didn't occur 20km out.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/turkey-rus ... -1.3334096

Sure there's a whole other debate of Russia's other doings, but this topic here is about the SU shot down. Just cause you don't like someone for what they did doesn't mean you have to justify the murder upon them. Or have we still not evolved yet to take the higher moral road?
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirMail wrote: Warnings given 8km from their airspace. So ok 10km total. Lets say it wasn't even 5 mins, just 3. That's 321kph or 178kts. Again, the math doesn't add up now does it. Even a 20km "buffer" zone which we all know would not apply here, and at 3 mins, that's 350kts, at around FL200. More possible, but again we know that the warnings didn't occur 20km out.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. You're pulling numbers out of your ass, and then saying they don't make sense.
Just cause you don't like someone for what they did doesn't mean you have to justify the murder upon them. Or have we still not evolved yet to take the higher moral road?
Turkey didn't murder them, the rebels did, and if you read my first post you'll see I don't condone that.

I don't like war, but sometimes you have to have to fight. The alternative is letting Hitler or ISIS run the world.
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ant_321
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by ant_321 »

"In Soviet Russia, Turkey shoots you!" Too soon?
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crazyaviator
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by crazyaviator »

Russia are the real thugs here, believing they can invade other countries, work with rebels who then shoot down airliners full of passengers, and lie about it all. It might be a small incursion, but Turkey has the right to defend their airspace, and their people
Forgotten in the MSN Hyperbole are the Facts:

The USA is fighting a war against assad with the help of Turkey, Saudi Arabia and others.
Moderate "rebels" are supplied by the USA and ISIS is basically existing because of American Hedgemonic interests in the Middle East.
Turkey is aiding and protecting and profiting off of ISIS, Turkey is a NATO country, so it has approval to do so. The American war monglols in power are licking their lips over the "ISIS" shootdown and Turkeys " SU warning" Like Israel, America wants to have a proxy war instead of direct contact and direct blame.
America does NOT want to eraticate their moderate-cum-radical rebel friends and accomplishes
Russia was not the agressor in the Ukraine America was.
Russia is not the agressor in Syria America is.
The USA started an illegal war against a sovereign country and Russia is protecting its interests and borders.
Islam is a hate religion and America and other nations illegally turned up the heat enough to make them boil. :(
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pelmet
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by pelmet »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Russia has published an alternative track for the plane showing it was nowhere near Turkish airspace.
And the Russians have no troops in Ukraine and none of their athletes is involved in state sponsored doping. And they didn't shoot down a 747.
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

crazyaviator wrote:Russia was not the agressor in the Ukraine America was.
Russia is not the agressor in Syria America is.
The USA started an illegal war against a sovereign country and Russia is protecting its interests and borders.
Islam is a hate religion and America and other nations illegally turned up the heat enough to make them boil. :(
So America fought a proxy war by not intervening in Russia's annexation of Crimia Ukraine and are somehow responsible for the Russian's occupation? *cue Islamic hatred and benevolence of facts*

-Are you kidding? If not please pass whatever you are drinking this way!

Back on topic...

Was it an air to air missle from a Turkish F-16 or something or someone else that downed the Russian fighter?

TPC
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DanWEC
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by DanWEC »

So what does Russia have to gain by underhandedly (read, intentionally?) creating a rationale for conflict, ostensibly, with Turkey?
Or is it just the obvious, which I believe is that Russia is supporting Asaad. What a mess.
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North Shore
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by North Shore »

DanWEC wrote:So what does Russia have to gain by underhandedly (read, intentionally?) creating a rationale for conflict, ostensibly, with Turkey?
Or is it just the obvious, which I believe is that Russia is supporting Asaad. What a mess.
Who knows, Dan? But I'm sure that Crazy will be along soon with his supply of tinfoil to tell us MSM-fed sheeple what is actually going on...
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

Not sure what you're trying to say here. You're pulling numbers out of your ass, and then saying they don't make sense.
I'm making the point that a 5min warning is BS. Even at different distances and time. I understand if you thought I was pulling numbers out of my ass as simple math might not be your strong suit.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

DanWEC wrote:So what does Russia have to gain by underhandedly (read, intentionally?) creating a rationale for conflict, ostensibly, with Turkey?
Or is it just the obvious, which I believe is that Russia is supporting Asaad. What a mess.
Perhaps Russia thinks that the area will be more stable with a secular Assad-like dictator in power than having the country in total anarchy, divided among 10 war lords, à la Somalia, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, who will all be of different shades of radical Islam, some of which we like to call "moderates" to fool ourselves (like Saudi salafite "moderates" for example)

May I remind you that when a "'moderate'" Islamist won the legal and legitimate elections in Egypt, following our "Arab Spring" we found him to be too hostile to Israel and too cozy with the Palestinians so we plotted with the Egyptian military to overthrow him and replace him with the current military dictatorship, which we now applaud as the legitimate government (that we are selling million of dollars of high tech weapons to)

Does anyone really think that when groups of "moderate" Islamists, like the ones that murdered that Russian crewmember while he was descending under his parachute, all the while screaming "Allah Akbar", will overthrow the Assad regime to introduce an Israel-friendly secular and democratic regime to Syria ?

Perhaps, unlike many leaders in the West, the Russians think ahead....... and more than that, perhaps the Russians, unlike many western counties, don't act as proxys to fight Israel's wars for them......
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

bizjets101
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by bizjets101 »

For anyone interested in the actual crew of the aircraft - the pilot was killed while parachuting - hit by bullets - however the navigator was rescued and is uninjured - currently at a Russian airbase inside Syria.

He has stated they were given no warnings - and were just hit by a missile - he said he was in control of the flight path - and at no time did they stray into Turkish airspace - and had they received a warning they would have taken evasive action - aircraft was at 6000 meters in straight and level flight when hit.

Syrian military rescued him.
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Moose47
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Moose47 »

G'day

I wish the media would stop calling the aircraft a fighter. It is an all-weather long range strike aircraft or more simply a bomber. This aircraft is Russia's answer to the F-111. There is only one pilot not two as they keep chirping about. The other crewman is the weapons systems operator.

It is time to seriously look at dumping Turkey as a N.A.T.O. member. They can not be trusted.

Cheers...Chris
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crazyaviator
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by crazyaviator »

don't act as proxys to fight Israel's wars for them
Anti-semetic talk like that could get you black listed lol :lol: I mean, the truth will get you banned,,,,dont want to see you leave :D
Who knows, Dan? But I'm sure that Crazy will be along soon with his supply of tinfoil to tell us MSM-fed sheeple what is actually going on...
Russia has already openly stated that they support Assad, They also mentioned that they do NOT want a war with Turkey! Its real easy,,, America and its "allies" are toppling many countries from inside ( Ukraine, libya, egypt, Iraq, Iran soon, Syria etc) A COVERT act of war on many sovereign nations. Russia is not interested in losing stragetic Ukraine and strategic Syria
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirMail wrote: I'm making the point that a 5min warning is BS. Even at different distances and time. I understand if you thought I was pulling numbers out of my ass as simple math might not be your strong suit.
It was a 10 min warning, not 5 mins. You can see the track here:

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/ ... wsrc%5Etfw

Not sure what is BS about it. It looks like they flew around the airspace for a while, and crossed into Turkey twice. Assuming the peninsula is 2km it looks like the entire track is around 50km (not 2 miles as you claim).

I'm an engineer, not that it matters here. Any pilot should be able to look at a map like that and estimate distance and time.
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Ypilot »

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pelmet
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by pelmet »

Bottom line, regardless of Russia's position on Syria which may or may not be the better solution, I suspect that they were intentionally going through Turkish airspace in that little corner in a similar aggressive manner that they have been doing elsewhere and it caught up with them.

I suspect that this will be the last time they do this in Turkish airspace.

Regardless of other issues that have come up with Turkey or Russia, I say good on the Turk's in this specific circumstance
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

pelmet wrote:Bottom line, regardless of Russia's position on Syria which may or may not be thie better solution, I suspect that they were intentionally going through Turkish airspace in that little corner in a similar aggressive manner that they have been doing elsewhere and it caught up with them.

I suspect that this will be the last time they do this in Turkish airspace.

Regardless of other issues that have come up with Turkey or Russia, I say good on the Turk's in this specific circumstance
Except that the Turks were supposed to be part of the coalition against ISIS and were doing anti-ISIS airstrikes in Syria.

http://www.dailysabah.com/nation/2015/1 ... hern-syria

After claiming that a 17 second incursion in their airspace by an aircraft that had no aggressive intent against Turkey was justification enough to blow it out of the sky, do you think the Turks can now risk any of their aircraft in Syrian airspace when Russia can claim to be defending Syrian airspace at the official request of the legitimate Syrian government ?

They have just shot themselves out of the air campaign.......

And in light of NATO's solidarity with what Turkey did, I feel sorry for any military pilot from any NATO country anywhere that will have the misfortune of straying for 17 seconds into Russian airspace.......
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by dhc# »

Putin and his merry band of thugs are very good at manipulating situations to suite their objectives, in this case playing the victim, when they are the aggressor.

MH 17 and Korean Air 007 were the result of Russian aggressive actions I have no pity for the Russians.....I remind everyone Putin stole Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine, and continues to wage a low level war there and in the process wrecking a country trying to break free of the Russian yoke.
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