Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

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boeingboy
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by boeingboy »

And in light of NATO's solidarity with what Turkey did, I feel sorry for any military pilot from any NATO country anywhere that will have the misfortune of straying for 17 seconds into Russian airspace.......
I'm sorry........but the Russians were warned many times about violating Turkish airspace. As a military pilot I'm sure they were always aware of exactly where they were - especially if there is another countries airspace nearby that is not involved. I can't believe they were not briefed about it.

This was not a student pilot with 20hrs in a cessna violating a TFR. These were professional pilots and Turkey had the right to defend itself. The pilots being shot in their chutes - i think thats a war crime is it not? that was inexcusable.
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Ypilot
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Ypilot »

boeingboy wrote: I'm sorry........but the Russians were warned many times about violating Turkish airspace. As a military pilot I'm sure they were always aware of exactly where they were - especially if there is another countries airspace nearby that is not involved. I can't believe they were not briefed about it.
What are the rules of engagement for Turkey ?
I find it hard to believe that two F-16s felt threatened by two Su-24s, they could have tried to make a visual contact and force them to land on a Turkish base or escort them out.

The Turkish government is irresponsible.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

dhc# wrote:Putin and his merry band of thugs are very good at manipulating situations to suite their objectives, in this case playing the victim, when they are the aggressor.

MH 17 and Korean Air 007 were the result of Russian aggressive actions I have no pity for the Russians.....I remind everyone Putin stole Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine, and continues to wage a low level war there and in the process wrecking a country trying to break free of the Russian yoke.
True, all very true and I agree. But lets not forget the worst, Putin's illegal aggression of Iraq in 2003, based on lies, war that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, mostly civilians, which pushed millions or refugees out their homes, which destroyed the country's infrastructures, its social fabric, and which created the power vacuum that destabilized the whole region and allowed first Al Qaeda and now ISIS to proliferate in a region where they did not exist before. You are right, Putin is a thug. Good thing we don't have such thugs on "our" side.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
crazyaviator
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by crazyaviator »

The 2003 invasion of Iraq lasted from 19 March to 1 May 2003 and signaled the start of the Iraq War, which was dubbed Operation Iraqi Freedom by the United States (prior to 19 March, the mission in Iraq was called Operation Enduring Freedom, a carryover from the War in Afghanistan)
WIKIPEDIA

Certain intelligence operatives told Saddam that an attack of Kuwait by him would not result in any American involvement,,, Saddam was led into the American trap, and the rest, they say, is history ( WMD, Illegal war, Imperial agression etc)
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

dhc# wrote:Putin and his merry band of thugs are very good at manipulating situations to suite their objectives, in this case playing the victim, when they are the aggressor.

MH 17 and Korean Air 007 were the result of Russian aggressive actions I have no pity for the Russians.....I remind everyone Putin stole Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine, and continues to wage a low level war there and in the process wrecking a country trying to break free of the Russian yoke.
On 3 October 2015 a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (English name: Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. It has been reported that at least 30 people were killed and over 30 were injured

Azizabad August 22, 2008 - During the night, American AC-130 warplanes carried out a deadly attack on the village. Their bombs killed about ninety civilians, many of whom were children

Kandahar March 11, 2012 - Staff Sergeant Robert Bales snuck away from his base in the Panjawi district in the Kandahar Province and entered a nearby house. He shot all ten residents, killing six. Bales returned briefly to the base before setting out again to another nearby home, where he killed twelve more and wounded two others. The sixteen people killed that day included nine children.

Guess we shouldn't pity the Americans then huh? (and this is just recent easily found war crimes, be here all day listing all of them since WW1). And lets not forget how well oiled the American war propaganda machine is. IE Iraq 2.0
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

Ypilot wrote:
boeingboy wrote: I'm sorry........but the Russians were warned many times about violating Turkish airspace. As a military pilot I'm sure they were always aware of exactly where they were - especially if there is another countries airspace nearby that is not involved. I can't believe they were not briefed about it.
What are the rules of engagement for Turkey ?
I find it hard to believe that two F-16s felt threatened by two Su-24s, they could have tried to make a visual contact and force them to land on a Turkish base or escort them out.

The Turkish government is irresponsible.
MC 362/1

the NATO ROE, provides guidance and direction on rules of engagement for
NATO in both joint and combined operations. Promulgated in July 2003, it is the only standing
Multinational ROE System. The current version, an unclassified document, is an update of NATO
MC 362, which begun in 1999 and was completed in July 2003. The document‘s function, as stated
earlier, is to provide NATO policy and procedural guidance. The document also provides a generic
catalogue of individual rules. As an ROE Catalogue, it groups and integrates land, sea and air rules.
The rules contained within, as well as the more general guidance, are designed for all aspects of
operations, from Peace through Crisis and potentially, up to Conflict.
2.
Terms and Definitions
(1)
Hostile Act

MC 362/1 provides a
definition of Hostile Act
as any intentional act causing serious prejudice or posing a serious danger to NATO/NATO
led forces or designated forces or personnel. ...

(2)
Also included in the discussion of Hostile Act is the necessity of taking any specific action
in the context of the status of the crisis, the political situation at the time and, if known,
the intent of the perpetrator (e.g. a defecting pilot), all of which must play a part in
determining if indeed a hostile act has occurred.
MC 362/1 gives some examples of the types of things that might constitute hostile acts, a list
which includes, but is not limited to:
(1)mine laying restricting NATO forces
(2)military a/c penetrating NATO airspace and not complying with intercept instructions
(3)intentionally impeding NATO operations
(4)breaching NATO secure/restricted areas
-
Hostile Intent

MC 362/1 defines it as ―a likely and identifiable threat
recognisable on the basis of both the following conditions: a. capability and
preparedness ... to inflict damage and, b. evidence ... which indicates an
intention to ... inflict damage.‘‘ Possible examples include manoeuvring into
weapons launch positions, deployment of remote targeting methods, and use
of shadowers / tattletales


Source
https://info.publicintelligence.net/NAT ... skbook.pdf
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xchox
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by xchox »

Just loving the Putin hate in this thread. Like Bush/Obama and their bitches (allies) haven't been meddling around in places they shouldn't be.

The fact is... Lines crossed or not... Why the @#$! would you blow someone out of the sky when they are doing the world and you a favour? Unless you have a stake in ISIS. The bottom line from what I've been reading is NATO as a whole are face palming Turkey right now. Turkey doesn't know what to do. And although Putin wants to wipe Turkey off the face of the map, He will most likely concede as not wanting WW3 to start. And that is me being wishful.
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dhc#
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by dhc# »

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Rockie
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Rockie »

xchox wrote:Just loving the Putin hate in this thread. Like Bush/Obama and their bitches (allies) haven't been meddling around in places they shouldn't be.

The fact is... Lines crossed or not... Why the @#$! would you blow someone out of the sky when they are doing the world and you a favour? Unless you have a stake in ISIS. The bottom line from what I've been reading is NATO as a whole are face palming Turkey right now. Turkey doesn't know what to do. And although Putin wants to wipe Turkey off the face of the map, He will most likely concede as not wanting WW3 to start. And that is me being wishful.
Russia is not bombing ISIS, they are fighting anybody posing the biggest threat to Assad which doesn't happen to be ISIS. This is very complex with history, geopolitical reality and recent incidents involved that we are not aware of, and don't have the ability to understand completely even if we were.

Putin is ruthless no question and will steal billions from his own country, and kill however many people he needs to to get what he wants. But GWB killed hundreds of thousands too for no legitimate reason. There are no white hats involved in this incident so I'm not taking sides personally. It is just another pilot dead following orders at the behest of powerful people using people like him as a pawn in a dangerous game.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirMail wrote:
On 3 October 2015 a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (English name: Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. It has been reported that at least 30 people were killed and over 30 were injured
Interesting you brought that up. The USA has just admitted that it was a mistake, and a profuse apology is likely in the works. Compare that to the Russian-backed downing of the passenger jet.
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

CpnCrunch wrote:
AirMail wrote:
On 3 October 2015 a United States Air Force AC-130U gunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (English name: Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. It has been reported that at least 30 people were killed and over 30 were injured
Interesting you brought that up. The USA has just admitted that it was a mistake, and a profuse apology is likely in the works. Compare that to the Russian-backed downing of the passenger jet.
Firstly, of course they'll apologize, still doesn't change the fact innocent civilians were murdered.

Secondly, if you want to compare backed groups, lets look at US backed Hussein in the 80s or US backed Mujahideen Islamist warriors of the Russian-Afgan war which eventually became Al Qaeda. Also how about those US backed Syrian rebels giving Al Qaeda weapons and supplies?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /72831840/

So I ask, who is backing the right horse? The answer, no one is. I think we can agree it's a damn bloody mess for all sides and no side is no more innocent than the other.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirMail wrote: So I ask, who is backing the right horse? The answer, no one is. I think we can agree it's a damn bloody mess for all sides and no side is no more innocent than the other.
Well, I think we can all agree that ISIS need to go.
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pelmet
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by pelmet »

xchox wrote:Just loving the Putin hate in this thread. Like Bush/Obama and their bitches (allies) haven't been meddling around in places they shouldn't be.

The fact is... Lines crossed or not... Why the @#$! would you blow someone out of the sky when they are doing the world and you a favour? Unless you have a stake in ISIS. The bottom line from what I've been reading is NATO as a whole are face palming Turkey right now. Turkey doesn't know what to do. And although Putin wants to wipe Turkey off the face of the map, He will most likely concede as not wanting WW3 to start. And that is me being wishful.
There are several here trying to change the subject. The US invaded Iraq or they bombed a wedding or whatever. But that Is not the subject. The subject is Russia intentionally entering NATO airspace.

So first point....fine, to make things easier, I will just accept how terrible the US and all your arguments are correct.

Now for the point to be made, Putin is intentionally doing all these little things like cutting briefly across a small piece of NATO airspace over and over in his continuing aggressive manner. Submarines go in other countries waters, slivers of airspace get cut across. Just like a bully. So, the bully got slapped.

And guess what, Putin will fume, threaten, add some missiles or increased weaponry here and there but you know what, he won't retaliate.

He got caught, and he will get slapped again if he does the same. If a NATO jet goes into Russian airspace, it will likely get shot down as well, but we are not doing such silliness(except perhaps by mistake).

And the good thing is that he pissed of the Turkish PM who was actually somewhat of a friendlier guy toward him. Good, A bad move in the Russian chess game.

Sorry Vlad, you lose this round.
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Ypilot
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Ypilot »

Thank you AirMail, if I understand correctly MC 362/1, Turkish government failed to respect their own rules of engagement. The two F16 never attempted to make visual contact with the two SU24. Russia was not attacking Turkey and the Russian jet crashed in Syria.

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
They have just shot themselves out of the air campaign.......

And in light of NATO's solidarity with what Turkey did, I feel sorry for any military pilot from any NATO country anywhere that will have the misfortune of straying for 17 seconds into Russian airspace.......
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/28/world ... .html?_r=0
I agree and I am not sure Vlad lost this round.
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Last edited by Ypilot on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Pelmet,

Thankyou for helping keep this thread on track...

A few questions that I have and make me wonder;

1) What happened or is happening to the two Russian pilots? Are the accounts of rebels shooting at them while they were still getting aquainted to the "caterpillar club" factual or are those reports propaganda?

2) Do NATO countries have rules of engagement when faced with a threat from an NATO ally?

3) Who has the advantage in a dog fight, the SU-24 or the F-16, which country has the "better" tech platform and subsequent countermeasures in what would be considered two different fighters of a relatively same vintage?

All the best,
TPC
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Just for shitz and giggles, let's drink the Koolaid, and put on our rose coloured glasses, and pretend that somehow Turkey felt the Russian fighter posed a threat. Which I'm certain is pure crap. But let's pretend. Okay?
To shoot aircrew, while they hang defenceless under a parachute is a bloody disgrace. A pure and total act of cowardice. A war crime.
If I was Putin, I'd retaliate. Probably not militarily. At least, I'd hope not. But retaliate, he surely must.
Illya
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Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

pelmet wrote:But that Is not the subject. The subject is Russia intentionally entering NATO airspace.
Nice try but that is not the subject. That is just a statement you made, which may or may not be correct. The subject is Turkey shooting down a Russian aircraft.

Turkey claims it entered Turkish airspace, the Russians claims it did not. One of them is wrong. You are free to believe whichever tickles your fancy, but dont try to pass off as fact that not only they entered Turkish airspace, but they did it intentionally and maliciously.
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DonutHole
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by DonutHole »

Does it really matter what happened?

America is walking Putin like a dog. It's just a matter of time before we can walk away from the mid east so we can sit and watch Russia grind itself into the dirt fighting a war that can't be won. The trap seems pretty obvious. With shale fueling America the mid east has been rendered essentially irrelevant. Now that we dont really need their oIL, who even cares? America won the oil war and Russia basically has the mid east revolution on its doorstep

Well played America, well played.

Let Russia play the big man, and let putin spend all of the Russian big man money. I smell a deal on a faberge egg!
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crazyaviator
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by crazyaviator »

He got caught, and he will get slapped again if he does the same. If a NATO jet goes into Russian airspace, it will likely get shot down as well, but we are not doing such silliness(except perhaps by mistake).
Was that little Francis Gary Powers U-2 flight a little mistake?

America and her illegal allies were making it "look" like they were going after ISIS, but the reality was not the case, they needed to harness ISIS as they did the so-called moderate rebels, to topple Assad thats all :roll:

Problem with some movements is that they grow out of their diapers and start to take less orders from mommy and daddy and create their own future
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AirMail
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Re: Turkey shoots down Russian fighter...

Post by AirMail »

I agree Cpn, ISIS must go.
TeePeeCreeper wrote:Pelmet,

Thankyou for helping keep this thread on track...

A few questions that I have and make me wonder;

1) What happened or is happening to the two Russian pilots? Are the accounts of rebels shooting at them while they were still getting aquainted to the "caterpillar club" factual or are those reports propaganda?
As video showed, Turkmen rebels fired upon and killed one of them, the other resuced by Syrian army. I do find it interesting that the rebels were camera ready and ready to shoot at the rescue chopper with an american tow missile (which according to a source takes time to set up)
2) Do NATO countries have rules of engagement when faced with a threat from an NATO ally?
Good question. Turkey claims they didn't know the nationality of those jets. What if it had been our F18s? Yes I'm sure NATO have friend/foe transponders, but what if there was a malfunction? What if (going cold war here) a Russian defector?
Also the recorded warnings were barely legible. When they said they were on guard, I was waiting to hear an american voice yell "yer on Guuuaard" with multiple cat noises. Guess it's a bit more mature over there

3) Who has the advantage in a dog fight, the SU-24 or the F-16, which country has the "better" tech platform and subsequent countermeasures in what would be considered two different fighters of a relatively same vintage?
That's easy, the F16. SU24 is 70s bomber. edit- the one shot down was a SU24m-a 2000 modernized version. I'd still call it outdated imo. They now have fighter escorts to prevent another occurrence
All the best,
TPC
Interesting to note as well from the interview of the Russian pilot that they were unaware of being warned and were in straight level flight at the time. Maybe the tech on the SU24 isn't so great?
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