IFR flight itinerary

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C4rbon14
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IFR flight itinerary

#1 Post by C4rbon14 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:23 pm

Hey guys !
I have a question about IFR flight itineraries:
CARs 602.73 (3) states that you can file an IFR flight itinerary if your flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace.
I know you don't need a clearance in uncontrolled airspace, but how can you fly from uncontrolled to controlled airspace with only an IFR flight itinerary ? (You need a clearance at some point right ?)

Thanks for your help :)
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#2 Post by FOD_Vacuum » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:17 pm

When operating on an IFR itinerary, you need an ATC clearance only if you plan on entering or exiting controlled airspace once. If you fly from point A to B wholy within uncontrolled airspace, then there is no need to pick up a clearance, and the responsible person (atc, your flight school, dispatch) assumes you take off at your scheduled departure time as per your initial itinerary. If however you are delayed, it is your respinsibility to update your departure time and also file an arrival report within 24 hours or as soon as possible. I believe that last part is true, correct me if I am wrong. Cheers.
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Meddler
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#3 Post by Meddler » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:28 pm

If you are leaving g from a controlled airspace, you will get a clearance before you take off as usual. Then you would get cleared to en route frequencies as you leave controlled airspace.

Coming back into controlled, you would call center before you enter controlled airspace, and get something like "cleared present position direct to vor, maintain 10000' in controlled" as a side note, you could do this in some places even if you were filed vfr(asuming you are ifr equipped of course). Handy if the weather is not as vfr as expected.

The rest of the time, you are just happily flying uncontrolled ifr all by yourself!
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#4 Post by photofly » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:31 pm

I think the basis of the question is that if you haven't filed a flight plan with Centre - only an itinerary with your mother-in-law - how does the ATCO know to have a clearance ready for you when you call them either on the ground for departure, or 5 minutes before entering controlled airspace? After all, having a clearance ready for you is the point of filing an instrument flight plan. Isn't it?
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#5 Post by Meddler » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:53 pm

I was talking about the kind of ifr itinerary that you file with atc, as opposed to a flight plan also filed with atc.

I think if you "popped up" in need of an ifr clearance and didn't have a flight plan at all, they would probably do thier best to fit you in, depending on the airspace and traffic. I'm sure there would be a bit more back and forth on the radio, and having a master on file would be important I'm sure. Also best not to mention your mother in law.

I'm not talking about going to Toronto international here of course, but quieter airspaces where it's not that unreasonable to fit in an unexpected ifr.

And yes, of course you would file either an itinerary or a plan with atc before trying to depart into controlled airspace.

Maybe we should post the question in the atc forum?
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#6 Post by C4rbon14 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:44 pm

photofly wrote:I think the basis of the question is that if you haven't filed a flight plan with Centre - only an itinerary with your mother-in-law - how does the ATCO know to have a clearance ready for you when you call them either on the ground for departure, or 5 minutes before entering controlled airspace? After all, having a clearance ready for you is the point of filing an instrument flight plan. Isn't it?
That's exactly what I wanted to know.
I know it would be best to file a flight plan in this situation, I'm just wondering what the ATC would do in practice if you show up without one.
Thank you again guys, I'll post the question in the ATC forum if I don't have an answer here :)
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springlocked
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#7 Post by springlocked » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:16 am

Here is a little history - back in the day popup IFR clearances were common practice and ATC was more than happy to issue a clearance based on a radio call and registration with no formal flight plan or flight note in play. Fast forward to today they are not so giving. Unless you have filed and it was there computer system lost you flight plan they might do it or tell you to air file and come back - up to the controller. We run into this every day and while we only use company flight following in uncontrolled airspace if we miss and need to go to an alternate in controlled we air file as soon as we miss and pick up a clearance prior to entering. Not complicated and very simple if you have a master flight plan on file which should just be done if you fly IFR just to make life easier.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#8 Post by sstaurus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:16 am

C4rbon14 wrote:
photofly wrote:I think the basis of the question is that if you haven't filed a flight plan with Centre - only an itinerary with your mother-in-law - how does the ATCO know to have a clearance ready for you when you call them either on the ground for departure, or 5 minutes before entering controlled airspace? After all, having a clearance ready for you is the point of filing an instrument flight plan. Isn't it?
That's exactly what I wanted to know.
I know it would be best to file a flight plan in this situation, I'm just wondering what the ATC would do in practice if you show up without one.
Thank you again guys, I'll post the question in the ATC forum if I don't have an answer here :)
I was under the impression, as noted in the post above yours, something has to be filed with atc, whether it's a flight plan or an itinerary. Itins on a napkin only work if you are wholly in uncontrolled.

As mentioned above, pop up IFRs are hard to get now.

Interestingly, I found the Winnipeg and Toronto FIRs treated itins differently. I can't remember the difference since its been so long, but make sure you clarify what they expect of you with your itin.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#9 Post by photofly » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:53 am

FSS pass flight plan information to ATC; my mother in law doesn't know how. If a flight itinerary is legal then it's acceptable for ATC not to know about it. Which is curious.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#10 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:27 am

The biggest difference between an IFR Flight Plan and an IFR Itin (filed with an FSS) is with the Itin, you can file multiple stops so long as they are all in uncontrolled airspace. They will ask your time spent on the ground at each destination, and total en route time including all stops There's also the different SAR times, but you can specify whatever you like. I often use 2hrs on longer itineraries in case there's a delay.

Depart controlled aerodrome. Once clear of controlled airspace, center will ask if you want to cancel, you say no. You land, do whatever on the ground, then take off again. Once you are approaching controlled airspace, call up center and ask for the clearance. They already have your itin and are expecting you at your ETA at the controlled aerodrome.

You can depart controlled airspace, make 4 stops all in uncontrolled and 10 hours later return to controlled airspace again all on the same flight itinerary.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#11 Post by BKerns » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 am

Cancel and Close flight plans are two different things but sometimes I hear on the radio "I'd like to close cancel and continue on a company note"
If I'm not mistaken if you are leaving controlled the IFR is cancelled (alerting remains, but most times they clarify and say "would you like to keep the alerting")
But you can also just close outright and then you are on a company note and the flight plan is closed (SAR wont come looking automatically if you don't report at destination)
TIL Flying 705 you can't close the IFR and fly on company note. You must always have either an IFR of VFR on file (sometimes a pain in the ass working up north where you don't always have easy access to a phone). Where as 703/704 you can close your IFR leaving controlled and continue on a company note.
Flying 703 we would normally close the flight plan in the air, except on the bad weather days where we were not sure we would get in. Then of course we would forget to close later once on he ground!
Just my little blurb about Cancelling vs. Closing
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#12 Post by anofly » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:31 pm

Well said. to be clear "cancelling ifr" gets rid of all the rules, spacing, protected airspace and you now have to look after all that yourself, and remain in vfr conditions.
"closing" says you no longer have any sort of flight plan, and if you are airborne noone will come looking for you as you no longer have any sort of flight plan. The controllers are normally very determined to get it all straight, as they want to know if they are looking for you or not! they feed you the phone number to call, make sure you have it, or happily accept the close airborne, as that makes you no longer their problem... LOL
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#13 Post by Donald » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:20 pm

BKerns wrote:TIL Flying 705 you can't close the IFR and fly on company note. You must always have either an IFR of VFR on file
Not true. Happens everyday in the Sands.

"YEG Center we have XYZ in sight, cancel the IFR please"

"Would you like the alerting to remain open?"

"Yes"

"Call on the ground to close please"
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#14 Post by BKerns » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:16 pm

Donald wrote:
BKerns wrote:TIL Flying 705 you can't close the IFR and fly on company note. You must always have either an IFR of VFR on file
Not true. Happens everyday in the Sands.

"YEG Center we have XYZ in sight, cancel the IFR please"

"Would you like the alerting to remain open?"

"Yes"

"Call on the ground to close please"
Did you read my post about close vs cancel? :rolleyes:
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#15 Post by oldncold » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:37 am

alot of this debate came out of the crash of an ifr aztec back in the late 80s where the pilot cancelled ifr crashed on approach nobody knew what happened until the next aircraft on an ifr approach into the same airport reported it. cancelling ifr and holding alerting services is your protection against that ) and cancelling ifr and holding alerting is alslo the courtesy way expediting ifr traffic flow into /out of uncontrolled busy airports on vfr days of Here are a couple of typical conversations for those flying 703/704 in the north
scenario #1
ywg center c-grub
c-grub ywg
c-grub requesting descent
ywg atc > cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of upper rubber boot Manitoba call thur 12500 we show no traffic between you and destination
c-grub cleared out controlled airspace in the vicinity of upper rubber boot Manitoba will call thru 12500

decent checks done decent ,begins decent ,approach briefing ( some sop's do it by distance. some by time to landing for app briefing. others before initiating decent ) and radio calls on 126.7 an after 12,500 call to ywg atc . thru say 11,000 presto vfr at the 2am
you dont need to advise atc that you are cancelling ifr because you on an ifr itinerary atc will come looking for you at the expired time on the itinerary .It is very useful for when medics get delayed at clinics I used 2hour window for sar and update eta before you lose radio coverage with center.

the nice part of ifr itineraries is the re entry in to controlled airspace on the way south
>atc this c-grub
c-grub ywg go ahead
atc c-grub climbing thru 9000 looking to pick up the ifr to ywg
might need to get bit higher depending on sector to get pal coverage but atc knows your leaving upper rubber boot and expected to be in their sector of responsibility . getting transponder code is faster too ( most Times)

scenario #2
atc
c-grub is cleared out controlled airspace in the vicinity of Norway house minimum 100 mile safe ifr altitude out of Thompson is (I don't have the chart in front of me so chill )4000ft its a Cavok so you cancel ifr but hold the alerting and will call down on the triple 1888 number

the important thing to know is you cannot use an ifr itinerary if you are going to enter controlled airspace more than one exit and one re- entry ( yes i know the door is open on that one but ladies fly too and so lets step up our decorum gents )

Note some fss / controllers will not let you file IFR itinerary if on your descent out hi level controlled you pass thru a low level controlled sector even if briefly en route to the uncontrolled airport area around red lake to pikangikum / popular hill as an example comes to mind depending on direction inbound

finally its the peace of mind factor if you feel your company dispatch is unreliable which can happen in small operations when the owner/mgr been awake for days running on min rest and it 2am // the ifr itinerary allows you to go do the job into remote places or rural towns. knowing that when time is up on the iten atc will start making phone calls on your behalf to find you fly safe 8)
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#16 Post by Donald » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:51 pm

BKerns wrote:Did you read my post about close vs cancel? :rolleyes:
Yup. That's why I quoted you.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#17 Post by fish4life » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:55 am

To help clarify when you cancel IFR your IFR flight plan turns into a VFR one with the alerting still open. When you Close your IFR, you are cancelling the IFR and Closing your flight plan no alerting anymore.

That said a lot of people say "I'd like to cancel the IFR and keep the alerting open". Which is redundant since cancelling the IFR is going to keep your alerting open its just that most people don't know the difference so half the time Center asks to clarify if you wanted the Alerting open still.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#18 Post by BKerns » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:52 am

Donald wrote:
BKerns wrote:TIL Flying 705 you can't close the IFR and fly on company note. You must always have either an IFR of VFR on file
Not true. Happens everyday in the Sands.

"YEG Center we have XYZ in sight, cancel the IFR please"

"Would you like the alerting to remain open?"


"Yes"

"Call on the ground to close please"

As I said 705 you shall not close your flight plan or itin while in the air and fly on company note. Cancle sure you can do that.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#19 Post by Lloyd YWG FIC » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:00 am

As a retired FSS from a FIC, I would do whatever I could to give a pilot whatever he wanted and airfiles/FP mods are part of the job. Having said that, not every FSS/ATOS/ATC had the same attitude. The whole cancelling IFR in the air became a SNAFU when the boys in the short pants in Ottawa deemed that we could not accept such a call. This led to the effed up procedures we have with ATC/FSS asking for clarification of closing v. cancelling. There is also the dumbass procedure of only allowing one exit and one entry on an IFR itin. Once again an arbitrary rule made up because staff were too lazy to figure out what a pilot wanted. Some employees take these rules to heart and apply them to the Nth degree. I tended to be a little more, ummm, flexible. :roll:
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#20 Post by JoeShmoe » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:30 pm

This is a good post, because I had the same confusion as the OP, and basically figured it out the same way everyone else does, by getting the "WTF is this guy talking about" voice from ATC, and then air filing a flight plan. One of those situations where what the rules clearly say is allowed, is not really what happens in the real world.

On the subject of IFR itineraries in the YWG FIC, Ive had it a couple times now where FIC would not let me file an itinerary from controlled airspace to places like Cross Lake, which is under an airway but still uncontrolled airspace. Couldn't figure that one out
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#21 Post by co-joe » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:48 pm

The only place I've ever done the IFR itinerary thing was Thompson. The clearance would usually read "clear to depart controlled airspace 20 nm east ot YTH (or something like that)" Basically you were fubar if you lost com and then had a real emergency and had to return. The return trip would basically be calling for a pop up IFR once coms were established. You'd fly IFR altitudes, and follow IFR procedures, but If you lost com on the trip home you really can't enter controlled airspace on an itinerary alone, so you'd have no choice but to go to alternate. Flight following and overdue aircraft, would be by company dispatch. I've never done it anywhere else than there and it was a long time ago so the particulars are vague memories.

Anybody use IFR itineraries lately?
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#22 Post by fish4life » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:37 pm

I use them half my days at work
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#23 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:04 am

I used one yesterday. Filed from a controlled airport, 30 minutes en route, 1st leg alternate was back to departure airport. 20 minutes on the ground. Second leg was back to home, with another alternate. Total ETE including stopover was 1:15. Specified 1hr SAR time. The destination was completely surrounded by uncontrolled airspace. No airways anywhere near. Once airborne again, center gave us a transponder code and a clearance back home. Didn't even care about my time airborne because alerting started on the first leg of the itin.

Also, this is in the Winnipeg FIR
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#24 Post by Lloyd YWG FIC » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:58 am

JoeShmoe wrote:This is a good post, because I had the same confusion as the OP, and basically figured it out the same way everyone else does, by getting the "WTF is this guy talking about" voice from ATC, and then air filing a flight plan. One of those situations where what the rules clearly say is allowed, is not really what happens in the real world.

On the subject of IFR itineraries in the YWG FIC, Ive had it a couple times now where FIC would not let me file an itinerary from controlled airspace to places like Cross Lake, which is under an airway but still uncontrolled airspace. Couldn't figure that one out
In order for a controller to issue a clearance he needs flight plan data in the "system" hence the filing of IFR itins with an FIC prior to flight. If the itin is filed with company, the controller has no data so some kind of airfile would be required to get a clearance. Once again, personal operating habits (as well as workload) may dictate how persnickety any particular controller or FSS may or may not be. Some FSS tend to get upset at airfiles. They know who they are and they should grow up.

As far as CYCR and places like it under an airway (CZFG, CZAC, etc), I think the ability to report out of controlled airspace comes into play. There is a need to know when the aircraft has departed controlled airspace. I know I've accepted IFR itins for stopovers at CYCR and CZFG and in some cases there were displeased people but hey, that's what the pilot wanted so I'll process the filed plan and worry about the admin part later. Nine times out of ten the controller accommodated the plan so no harm no foul.

I have no clue what other FIRs do with these animals but they worked well in YWG FIR when everyone did their job. Maybe things have changed since I retired.
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Re: IFR flight itinerary

#25 Post by fish4life » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:05 pm

I'm not sure on the specifics but I thought the idea with the itin wasn't that you only exit and enter controlled airspace once and it doesn't have to do with the airports your going to airspace.
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