Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

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bobcaygeon
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Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by bobcaygeon » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:23 pm

5 year contract ratified, existing contract expired Dec 31, 2015
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:58 pm

Any good news? Or is it still 10k up front bond, and Navajo jobs pay better.
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Maynard
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Maynard » Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:51 pm

Really? your going to compare a Navajo gig to the bear? That should be fun
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:05 am

Maynard wrote:Really? your going to compare a Navajo gig to the bear? That should be fun
Nope. He's asking about the 10K up front. Toss in a couple of the Bear's wonky SOPs, and it's not what it could be. These guys don't need to milk cash from new pilots. So, why does the practice continue?
Illya
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:13 am

Illya is right. I turned down a Bearskin job because of the ridiculous bond. Pilots seem happy there, and I am not bashing the operation. It seems like a fairly well run and professional company. I just wasn't going to buy a job and settle for the mediocre pay. There are, for a fact, Navajo pilots making more than Bearskin pays.

Any news on if the new deal is a decent improvement?
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Jimmybuffet
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Jimmybuffet » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:41 am

So how much does a first year Navajo cojo make? How much does the first year Navajo capt make? Just curious.....
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bobcaygeon
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by bobcaygeon » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:32 am

When industry benchmarks for contracts and competition are Georgian, CMA, Wasaya, jazz, Encore, Porter, Calm Air you don't get a lot of leverage.

Still above the competition with decent working rules and no grievances with the company in years.

I just bought a decent house in Tbay for 220k and can be in a boat or snow machine in 20 minutes while others are still waiting for the employee parking lot bus at T1. I like it....
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fish4life
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by fish4life » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:26 am

You should take Calm Air off your list, most CPT's there are between $120-170 000 so I'd say they set a damn good benchmark.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:06 am

Let me put it this way. In my first year flying a Navajo, I am $6000 further ahead that I would have been if I had been working for Bearskin. Year 2 will widen that gap by another $15 000. Bearskin captain pay is slightly higher than MOST Navajo captain jobs pay, but it takes a long time to make up for the difference.

I was making 12% more comparing Navajo FO to Bearskin FO, then 5% less comparing Navajo captain to Bearskin captain. Upgrading 2+ years quicker means substantial difference in overall pay. Plus the M-PIC opens doors that aren't available to a 2 year Bearskin FO.

Bobcaygeon's situation sounds wonderful. The price of admission was worth it for him. However it's just not worth it for me. From the silence about the new deal, I am getting the impression that it is much the same as the old one. Therefore, I personally, am still better off flying a Navajo.

As with almost every discussion about WAWCON, it varies from person to person.
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springlocked
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by springlocked » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:21 am

I personally, am still better off flying a Navajo.
-- one can justify anything but to compare working under 703 to 704 (at least until the FDT is amended) you don't care much for scheduled time off and live with the phone ringing at anytime of the night or day -- you will eventually lean that there is more to it than money but a whole package which money is just part of it. You have to ask yourself where does navaho command time put you -- that's correct, in the right seat of a metro -- :smt040
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Maynard
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Maynard » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:09 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:Bearskin captain pay is slightly higher than MOST Navajo captain jobs pay, but it takes a long time to make up for the difference.
How many days off do you get? do you have travel privileges to go anywhere on your days off? how long are your days? Pension? Benefits?
Upgrading 2+ years quicker means substantial difference in overall pay.
1 year would be substantial? Not likely....
Plus the M-PIC opens doors that aren't available to a 2 year Bearskin FO.
get with the times, no one gives a rats ass about MPIC anymore....sad but true. More 1 year FO's have left here in the past year to go to encore, jazz and the like, than captains would have 5 years ago. Also a reason for the bond, no one gives a sh*t about working somewhere, its just a step to get to the big shiny jet.

As someone else said, if your sole interest is Pay, then I'm sorry but your not going to make a mint as an fo at the bear.........or jazz, or encore, or CMA, or georgian, or wasaya, or perimeter, or.....list goes on....
I make more at the bear as a line pilot, than a training captain makes at Encore. And I'm not even in the middle of the list. Everyone on the top half make 75-100k a year. Not bad for a Metro Driver who doesn't have to bust his ass up north in shitty working conditions....
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indieadventurer
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by indieadventurer » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:07 pm

Maynard, could you post the new capt and f.o. pay scales? I'll assume it's still 80 hr/month for blocking.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:35 pm

All I've said is that my pay package in the mid-term is better where I currently work as compared to Bearskin's old deal.
M-PIC may not matter to Jazz, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Plus, not everybody suffers from shiny jet syndrome.

You are jumping to wild generalizations about the 703 world with having no idea about my actual schedule and lifestyle. Not every Navajo operator is the scum of the industry. My phone has yet to ring outside bank hours, and I'm home every night having a drink with my wife.

I respect your personal choice to work for Bearskin. Please respect my personal choice not to.

Now this is supposed to be a thread about Bearskin's new deal, not a 703 bash fest. Can somebody please do as indieadventurer just asked and post the new conditions of the contract? Who knows, I might like the terms. :wink:
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by JayVee » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Looks pretty good to me.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:15 pm

Maynard, I know you love the Bear, and that's great, it really is....but that 10K guys have to pay up front (you know, to "buy" the job) would pay for a bunch of trips on the airlines. I know you coughed up 10K, and it appears to be the only reason to continue to do so? No reason to admit you're stupid (the Bear, not you) if you continue to be so?
There are other issues that keep the Bear on my personal "no fly" list. Another time.
Illya
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DanWEC
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by DanWEC » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:10 pm

I wasn't a fan of their up front bond, on principle. I didn't see why I should get a loan in my name affecting my credit, etc. Now, I do absolutely see the necessity of a retention agreement, it makes no difference to me as I wouldn't jump ship anyways, but if you do have a retention contract and I get a fantastic offer somewhere else sooner than expected, I could accept it in good conscience knowing I'm not screwing over my employer by taking care of my pro-rated training. A bond, in my mind, actually gives you more options and keeps everyone happy, but paying up front to train yourself is silly.

Anyhow, 75-100k is more than a training captain makes at Encore? Really?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:55 pm

DanWEC...so, you'd say you "need" a training bond? Your word is not enough then? Interesting.
Illya
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DanWEC
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by DanWEC » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:35 pm

Do you mean my word personally? If so, you should read more carefully, as you have understood completely backwards.
DanWEC wrote:it makes no difference to me as I wouldn't jump ship anyways
I'll explain again. I get from a business standpoint why a bond is in place, that much is simple, but it didn't start because of guys like me, it's for guys that will jump at the first chance for something better. Therefore it doesn't make a difference to me, who grew up respecting employers and will stick around anyways.
But, as an eternal optimist I look on the positive side- if you do get bonded, it can function as an option to leave early by paying for it and making good with your employer, as opposed to not leaving out of basic respect and principle.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:28 am

Does the new contract still have the up-front bond? What about pay scale, GDOs, schedule? Anything?

We have an entire thread dedicated to the new "5 year deal". Yet, we are continuing to talk about the old contract. All we know is that JayVee thinks it looks good, but won't say why.
JayVee wrote:Looks pretty good to me.
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Maynard
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by Maynard » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:41 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
There are other issues that keep the Bear on my personal "no fly" list. Another time.
Illya
Is now a good time? I'm just curious what your "issues" are? Maybe I should stop putting my wife and kids on the planes if you have concerns I should know about.
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by ajet32 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:25 am

75-100K is very likely more than a training Captain makes at Encore. You do have the big "jet" out there for you some day.(if that's what you want). I would have to agree with earlier posters, if what you want is an airline career then an FO job at the " Bear" is well worth the 10K right or wrong. I know of several at Cathay who went that route 20 plus years ago. It is really just a price of doing business , again right or wrong no comment. Real question, where do you want to be in 10-20 years. Somewhere up north or in a major centre or for that matter the middle east or Asia. They don't hire Navaho Captains into A320's in China at that enviable 20K USD a month. I think you still need that 25 ton time at Emirates although I don't know that for a fact.
Once again my 2 cents worth.
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timel
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Re: Bearskin Pilots ratify 5 year deal

Post by timel » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:08 am

No one should have to pay an up front cash training bond.

I am personnaly ok to sign a training bond agreement, if the pilot quits before the end, he may have to pay for his training. Now it is up to the pilot to decide if the bond he is signing is fair.

But please, don't give your money up front, what is wrong with you people, this is giving way too much leverage to operators on your decision making. Why don't you guarantee the house while you are at it? Or maybe it is just me and the money is growing on trees in Ontario.

I am surprised that unions are tolerating this up front cash non sense. That is how useless they can be sometime.
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