Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics...

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3022
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics...

Post by CpnCrunch »

---------- ADS -----------
  

Changes in Latitudes
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2396
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:47 am
Location: The weather is here, I wish you were beautiful.

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

Looked like a 1g roll. What certification does that require? Ever see the movie Bat-21?

She's a nimble beastie, love the master.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3212
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by PilotDAR »

Looked like a 1g roll
.... or less, there seemed to be a few items floating around.
---------- ADS -----------
  

GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by GyvAir »

Judging by the weightless salted nuts tin at the :20 mark, there was at least a bit of negative G experienced.

Leaving the registration fully visible at several points in the video was a nice touch.

Posted back in 2009. Doubt anyone's going to be chased down at this point, regardless.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3022
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by CpnCrunch »

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Looked like a 1g roll. What certification does that require?
I would hope you would be able to answer that yourself.
---------- ADS -----------
  

SuperchargedRS
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:30 am
Location: the stars playground

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by SuperchargedRS »

PilotDAR wrote:
Looked like a 1g roll
.... or less, there seemed to be a few items floating around.
That was my first thought too, well after he needs to pledge his windshield

Frankly though, presuming the pax knew before hand and were cool with it, long as it was the PICs own plane, and since it wasn't over a populated area, whatever
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC »

Unless they scrawled that reg on there for fun to avert authorities, that plane was being flown for Discovery at the time....

How much ya wanna bet that guy watched Bat21 the night before? :)
---------- ADS -----------
  

toelessjoe
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by toelessjoe »

Did that registration say FSIW? :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

J31
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1074
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by J31 »

Fire patrol training :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

N181CS
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:05 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by N181CS »

Was that you mr Joe? Those poor suck and blows.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JasonE
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 592
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by JasonE »

Nice...

Registered Owner Information
Name: Discovery Air Fire Services Inc.
Address: Box 400
City: Dryden
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright

User avatar
redlaser
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:48 am
Location: CYXU

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by redlaser »

Ailron roll can be accomplished in just about any aircraft as long as the G load is not surpassed, but that aircraft is not considered to be in the Aerobatic cat. of aircraft , just the Normal cat. Following the manouvre if the aircraft sustained any damage the pilot would be on the hook, The POH information handbook will state which manoeuvre's are authorized and the G limits plus or negative, for the airplane.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Don't let your wife talk you out of buying an airplane, :D

B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by B208 »

Hey Redlaser, what's your take on rolling g?
---------- ADS -----------
  

AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn »

In the Utility Category, an airplane is authorized to (from the airworthiness manual):

(1) Spins (if approved for the particular type of aeroplane); and

(2) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, or similar manoeuvres, in which the angle of bank is more than 60 degrees but not more than 90 degrees.

I don't see rolls in there.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3639
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by co-joe »

So doesn't that invalidate the C of A?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1832
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by goingnowherefast »

Any airplane can be rolled. 707, Concorde, Aero Commander.

Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's smart, a good idea, or legal. Certainly pretty dumb to film it, and especially to post it on YouTube.
---------- ADS -----------
  

AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn »

co-joe wrote:So doesn't that invalidate the C of A?

For the time the aircraft is operated in contravention to the POH and its category.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3022
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by CpnCrunch »

The Skymaster is only certified in the Normal category, so you can't even do spins.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC »

Yeppers. Or banks over 60 degrees.
That being said, if you can keep the loading within spec between 3.8 and -1.52 as per the AFM, isn't the bank angle really just an arbitrary limiting factor? Plane doesn't know which end is up.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DanWEC on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn »

It is the definition of normal and utility categories. How they got there is irrelevant at this point. 60 degrees AOB is 2G in level flight. 90 is infinite Gs to maintain level (ie: unless you use other means to generate an aerodynamic force opposite to the weight of the aircraft).
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC »

Agreed. Actual legality aside, (I don't think there's a debate there.) A 1g barrel roll is doable (Not that aileron roll in the video!!) and well within the operating envelope of the airplane, so purely as a thought experiment- if it doesn't exceed the aforementioned design parameters, isn't the bank angle a bit arbitrary as a legal limitation?

-Edit, the way the AFM reads, it is "turns in which the angle of bank is not more than 60*." This implied a bit more relationship with wing loading. So partially answering my own musings....
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DanWEC on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
trampbike
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1013
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:11 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by trampbike »

DanWEC wrote: A 1g barrel roll is doable (Not that aileron roll in the video!!)
You can't do a barrel roll at 1G.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Think ahead or fall behind!

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC »

Why not? Heck didn't Tex Johnson do it in a 707? I'm not an aero pilot, am I naming the wrong type of roll?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3212
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by PilotDAR »

if you can keep the loading within spec between 3.8 and -1.52 as per the AFM
How does the pilot of your average airplane measure this?

Many posters here already know this well, but it's probably time to refresh the theme...

An element of the certification of an aircraft is operational limitations and approved maneuvers. It is required that they be stated on the limitations placard. Flying the maneuver is one thing, but the tolerance for excursion is another. Sure, you can roll many planes ( I found myself in a roll during flight testing of a Lake Amphibian - beautiful!), but does the aircraft have the capability to let you safely out of a botched maneuver? How would you know until you find yourself there?

All single engined certified planes must demonstrate spin recovery during certification testing, so why are not many spin approved? Because the margin for recovery from excursion or imperfect technique is inadequate. A well executed spin recovery in a forward C of G Caravan will require a 2.5G recovery near Vne to get out. Not much room to get it wrong, and really difficult to execute correctly without a G meter!

So the intrepid 337 pilot knows what many of us know, it'll roll okay. But if the roll were to be botched, is there room to get out without bending or stretching something important? Would he know if he did? Would he report it if he knew?
---------- ADS -----------
  

cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by cgzro »

Why not?
The pitch up at the beginning means more than 1G, probably 1.5 to 2G's. Then the pitch up again at the end also requires more than 1G. The only way to roll it within the [1G , -1G] envelope is if the plane has sufficient thrust / speed and side area to maintain altitude in knife edge flight with healthy application or rudder as you go around.

The main danger in any rolling maneuver is insufficient roll rate, or relaxing or pausing the roll after the plane goes past 90 degrees. Most pilots the first time they roll will naturally make several mistakes. The first is not tightening the seat belts enough so their ass lifts off the seat as you go negative. Then when their ass goes off the seat they naturally pull on the control column which pulls you toward the ground causing increased altitude loss and greater speed/G required for recovery. The third error is not maintaining sufficient aileron which slows the roll and means longer time without the wings lifting the way you want and increased recovery speed and altitude. If you are unlucky you can end up with the nose very low during the pull up and a very high speed and over G during the recovery. These are all mistakes that are best made in a plane that can take the abuse when you muck it up. Of course there is no physical reason why most planes could not execute rolls with little risk but in a fragile airplane it requires a lot of skill to do it perfectly every time... remember 1 in 100 botch ups are pretty poor odds.

Also the pre-flight for an aerobatic flight includes a few more items such as loose items checks etc. which likely have never been done in a non aerobatic plane and you risk getting hit in the head by something. I once got a mag-light right in the temple during a low roll and fire extinguishers have been known to come loose.. not fun so careful pre-flight is pretty important. We typically also usually have redundant seat belts because well ... its not pretty when you come loose.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”