Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics...

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CpnCrunch
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Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics...

Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:38 pm

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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by Changes in Latitudes » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:55 pm

Looked like a 1g roll. What certification does that require? Ever see the movie Bat-21?

She's a nimble beastie, love the master.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:04 pm

Looked like a 1g roll
.... or less, there seemed to be a few items floating around.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by GyvAir » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:09 pm

Judging by the weightless salted nuts tin at the :20 mark, there was at least a bit of negative G experienced.

Leaving the registration fully visible at several points in the video was a nice touch.

Posted back in 2009. Doubt anyone's going to be chased down at this point, regardless.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:24 pm

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Looked like a 1g roll. What certification does that require?
I would hope you would be able to answer that yourself.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by SuperchargedRS » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:10 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Looked like a 1g roll
.... or less, there seemed to be a few items floating around.
That was my first thought too, well after he needs to pledge his windshield

Frankly though, presuming the pax knew before hand and were cool with it, long as it was the PICs own plane, and since it wasn't over a populated area, whatever
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:28 pm

Unless they scrawled that reg on there for fun to avert authorities, that plane was being flown for Discovery at the time....

How much ya wanna bet that guy watched Bat21 the night before? :)
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by toelessjoe » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:17 pm

Did that registration say FSIW? :lol:
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by J31 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:39 pm

Fire patrol training :lol:
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by N181CS » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:02 pm

Was that you mr Joe? Those poor suck and blows.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by JasonE » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:56 pm

Nice...

Registered Owner Information
Name: Discovery Air Fire Services Inc.
Address: Box 400
City: Dryden
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by redlaser » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:51 pm

Ailron roll can be accomplished in just about any aircraft as long as the G load is not surpassed, but that aircraft is not considered to be in the Aerobatic cat. of aircraft , just the Normal cat. Following the manouvre if the aircraft sustained any damage the pilot would be on the hook, The POH information handbook will state which manoeuvre's are authorized and the G limits plus or negative, for the airplane.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by B208 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:30 pm

Hey Redlaser, what's your take on rolling g?
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:33 pm

In the Utility Category, an airplane is authorized to (from the airworthiness manual):

(1) Spins (if approved for the particular type of aeroplane); and

(2) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, or similar manoeuvres, in which the angle of bank is more than 60 degrees but not more than 90 degrees.

I don't see rolls in there.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by co-joe » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:12 pm

So doesn't that invalidate the C of A?
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:19 pm

Any airplane can be rolled. 707, Concorde, Aero Commander.

Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's smart, a good idea, or legal. Certainly pretty dumb to film it, and especially to post it on YouTube.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:33 pm

co-joe wrote:So doesn't that invalidate the C of A?

For the time the aircraft is operated in contravention to the POH and its category.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by CpnCrunch » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:40 pm

The Skymaster is only certified in the Normal category, so you can't even do spins.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:20 pm

Yeppers. Or banks over 60 degrees.
That being said, if you can keep the loading within spec between 3.8 and -1.52 as per the AFM, isn't the bank angle really just an arbitrary limiting factor? Plane doesn't know which end is up.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:23 pm

It is the definition of normal and utility categories. How they got there is irrelevant at this point. 60 degrees AOB is 2G in level flight. 90 is infinite Gs to maintain level (ie: unless you use other means to generate an aerodynamic force opposite to the weight of the aircraft).
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:34 pm

Agreed. Actual legality aside, (I don't think there's a debate there.) A 1g barrel roll is doable (Not that aileron roll in the video!!) and well within the operating envelope of the airplane, so purely as a thought experiment- if it doesn't exceed the aforementioned design parameters, isn't the bank angle a bit arbitrary as a legal limitation?

-Edit, the way the AFM reads, it is "turns in which the angle of bank is not more than 60*." This implied a bit more relationship with wing loading. So partially answering my own musings....
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by trampbike » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:03 pm

DanWEC wrote: A 1g barrel roll is doable (Not that aileron roll in the video!!)
You can't do a barrel roll at 1G.
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by DanWEC » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:08 pm

Why not? Heck didn't Tex Johnson do it in a 707? I'm not an aero pilot, am I naming the wrong type of roll?
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:16 pm

if you can keep the loading within spec between 3.8 and -1.52 as per the AFM
How does the pilot of your average airplane measure this?

Many posters here already know this well, but it's probably time to refresh the theme...

An element of the certification of an aircraft is operational limitations and approved maneuvers. It is required that they be stated on the limitations placard. Flying the maneuver is one thing, but the tolerance for excursion is another. Sure, you can roll many planes ( I found myself in a roll during flight testing of a Lake Amphibian - beautiful!), but does the aircraft have the capability to let you safely out of a botched maneuver? How would you know until you find yourself there?

All single engined certified planes must demonstrate spin recovery during certification testing, so why are not many spin approved? Because the margin for recovery from excursion or imperfect technique is inadequate. A well executed spin recovery in a forward C of G Caravan will require a 2.5G recovery near Vne to get out. Not much room to get it wrong, and really difficult to execute correctly without a G meter!

So the intrepid 337 pilot knows what many of us know, it'll roll okay. But if the roll were to be botched, is there room to get out without bending or stretching something important? Would he know if he did? Would he report it if he knew?
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Re: Didn't know the Skymaster was certified for aerobatics..

Post by cgzro » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:48 pm

Why not?
The pitch up at the beginning means more than 1G, probably 1.5 to 2G's. Then the pitch up again at the end also requires more than 1G. The only way to roll it within the [1G , -1G] envelope is if the plane has sufficient thrust / speed and side area to maintain altitude in knife edge flight with healthy application or rudder as you go around.

The main danger in any rolling maneuver is insufficient roll rate, or relaxing or pausing the roll after the plane goes past 90 degrees. Most pilots the first time they roll will naturally make several mistakes. The first is not tightening the seat belts enough so their ass lifts off the seat as you go negative. Then when their ass goes off the seat they naturally pull on the control column which pulls you toward the ground causing increased altitude loss and greater speed/G required for recovery. The third error is not maintaining sufficient aileron which slows the roll and means longer time without the wings lifting the way you want and increased recovery speed and altitude. If you are unlucky you can end up with the nose very low during the pull up and a very high speed and over G during the recovery. These are all mistakes that are best made in a plane that can take the abuse when you muck it up. Of course there is no physical reason why most planes could not execute rolls with little risk but in a fragile airplane it requires a lot of skill to do it perfectly every time... remember 1 in 100 botch ups are pretty poor odds.

Also the pre-flight for an aerobatic flight includes a few more items such as loose items checks etc. which likely have never been done in a non aerobatic plane and you risk getting hit in the head by something. I once got a mag-light right in the temple during a low roll and fire extinguishers have been known to come loose.. not fun so careful pre-flight is pretty important. We typically also usually have redundant seat belts because well ... its not pretty when you come loose.
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