AME cracked cylinder while removing exhaust - liability?

[zealer]

Hey all,

My plane is currently in for annual. The engine is a Lycoming O-320. Nothing too crazy was found - the only big ticket item was some exhaust repair needed (some cracks in pipe). I received a call one morning and was explained whilst removing the exhaust from the cylinders, one of the studs broke and cracked the cylinder. Apparently it is not repairable and the cylinder must be replaced (I would assume it cracked around the stud hole). However, I have not yet seen the damage.

It is around $1500-$1600 for a re-manufactured cylinder and labor. However, my question is, am I fully responsible for the cost? I do trust the AME's, however, a part of me definitely feels it was preventable. I understand the exhaust is connected to the jug and they would be playing around in that area, but I would have expected the risk would be damaging the exhaust manifold, not the cylinder. These guys are a lot more experienced than myself, but I have dealt with some really nasty exhaust studs & bolts in the past (living in Quebec, salt everywhere = rusted everything) and whilst frustrating to deal with, I have never damaged the surrounding parts. Unfortunately, since I wasn't present to see it happen, I will never fully know exactly how it happened, but as mentioned, a part of me feels that it was probably preventable. (for example: I'd rather pay for 10 hours labor to drill the studs, if that's what it would take).

On the other hand, I don't really want to create a rift with these guys. I do trust them, they've been in business and working on these planes for a very long time. They help me out a lot with free advice. However, I don't think I've had $1500 worth of advice, if you know what I mean.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I will refrain from commenting about the "unfortunate occurance"...

Realistically, what other Mx providers do you have at your disposal and is this a "hill you are ready to die on"?

Been there, done that before...

All the best,
TPC

[fleet16b]

Ask yourself a question " would I expect my local auto mechanic to cover the costs to repair something he damaged ? "
Most people I know would.
There is no reason that your AME should not be held responsible in the same way
IF the damage was done by the shop , why would you be obligated to pay for it ?

[PilotDAR]

The following will probably come across more resoundingly than I intend it, but... When the mechanic put the wrench to the stud [nut], was the stud "airworthy"? Or, was it already defective? In most cases, this would be very hard to tell. If a mechanic broke off a brand new stud either in or out, I would say that the mechanic should bear some responsibility for that. However, if this was a stud which had been there unchecked for umpteen years, and was corroded part way through, or cracked by a previous event, in my opinion, it's just one of those things which an aircraft owner has to endure as an operating cost.

I follow the thoughts of TPC on this, you may create a much greater disturbance in your maintenance force fussing much about this, review all of your options before making an issue. That said, as a person who supports the maintenance industry, I hope that my fellow maintenance people would not try to take a profit from work like this - it is a two way street.

Removing exhausts "just to inspect studs" is uncommon, for the reason that you now know. Similarly cylinders. I have pulled studs on both on my engines over the years. I just accept that a damaged stud is a part of the cost of maintaining an aircraft, which I'll have to bear...

I hope that's a bit of a help from a fellow owner....

[co-joe]

Is $1500 what a replacement jug would have cost you had you walked in off the street to buy one? If so they are charging you mark up, and full labour? That wouldn't sit well with me.

Odds are an apprentice screwed it up, but we'll never know for sure. Stuff breaks, but most mechanics would eat the labour, or at the very least charge you wholesale cost and eat some of the labour. But I don't know that for sure. Did you sign a maintenance release of some kind that covers this? fine print etc.

[photofly]

If it was genuinely a moment of incompetence from the AME then I'd pay the part cost - sans markup- for the cylinder myself, and ask for the labour to install it at a substantial discount. If a tradesperson screws up it's not unreasonable to expect them to work to fix the error in their own time but if it involves a big outlay in parts cost I think you probably have to swallow that.

Was it an error? To some extent you have to trust what the AME says. If they're genuine - they'll fess up.

Either way you end up with a new cylinder; it may be that the old one didn't need replacing but it may have been close to failure anyway.

[fleet16b]

If it was genuinely a moment of incompetence from the AME then I'd pay the part cost - sans markup- for the cylinder myself, and ask for the labour to install it at a substantial discount. If a tradesperson screws up it's not unreasonable to expect them to work to fix the error in their own time but if it involves a big outlay in parts cost I think you probably have to swallow that.

Why would you eat part of the cost ?
I mean its very nice of you to do this but.......
As I asked , do you let your car shop off that easy also ?
Back when I was actively working on customer aircraft , if one of us broke something , the shop/boss ate the cost

In this case the AME did not damage a stud but cracked a major aircraft component.
That owner should not be paying to make things right and the shop should not be asking them to .

[Heliian]

As an AME, I would have documented the damages as soon as it happened with pictures and whatnot. When a customer is given an estimate at my shop, they sign for the estimate and also sign a liability release of sorts that says in case of such occurrences, we will not be held liable because of factors like age and operating conditions.

Taking the manifold off is not difficult but if it's been on there for decades or it's been repeatedly overtorqued, the guy that the cylindre breaks on is not the cause. It also may not be your fault because you had no idea that the previous owner had a hamfisted mechanic, it's just the cost of ownership. Looking at some 320 cyl prices quickly and I see that the deal he is offering is not too bad, in CAD I hope.

[5x5]

Obviously a brief description from one side of the situation on an internet forum isn't great for any real analysis, but here are a couple of observations from me.

First, it is important to get more info and as you stated get to the shop and see exactly the type of damage and where it's located. More info may make it much more clear where any fault may lie.

You state twice in your message that you trust these guys, but the rest of your message sort of indicates otherwise. You also say that they have been very helpful with free advice, but you don't value that as highly as the immediate $$ this item is costing. Are you making a truly equitable comparison? It's really easy to underestimate the bits and pieces of time over a long period when it comes to comparing to a one time, direct hit. And besides the actual time spent dispensing that advice, what did it save you in costs for each situation where the help was given?

Even if the cracks were caused directly by the removal of the stud, on what basis can you say that it was negligence? Just because some other experienced maintenance person says they've never seen it before doesn't mean it can't happen. Anytime you disturb a physical system there is a risk of effects to other parts of the system.

Anyway, good luck dealing with this. It is a bit of a sticky situation anytime you're dealing with a trust-based relationship where doubt creeps in.

[fleet16b]

As an AME, I would have documented the damages as soon as it happened with pictures and whatnot. When a customer is given an estimate at my shop, they sign for the estimate and also sign a liability release of sorts that says in case of such occurrences, we will not be held liable because of factors like age and operating conditions. .

Definitely a good Shop practice .

[SuperchargedRS]

As an AME, I would have documented the damages as soon as it happened with pictures and whatnot. When a customer is given an estimate at my shop, they sign for the estimate and also sign a liability release of sorts that says in case of such occurrences, we will not be held liable because of factors like age and operating conditions.

Has that held up in court?

You can have your customer sign stacks of waivers, but if you SCREW UP regardless of what they sign often a small claims judge will see it for what it is and have you make your customer whole.


In the OPs situation, at the very least I'd want the jug and all parts and cost and I wouldn't pay for labor, if the system wasn't very old or I suspected it was the shops fault I would expect the shop to eat the parts & labor, I would take it to court if needed and lost all court documents online for their future clients to see.


It's easy to run a business when things go well, where you really see a business shine or fail is how they handle things when they make a mistake.

[photofly]

Why would you eat part of the cost ?
I mean its very nice of you to do this but.......
As I asked , do you let your car shop off that easy also ?

It's very easy to win the battle and lose the war. Assuming it wasn't clear incompetence, there's no cast iron rule that says the AME has to pay. Whatever satisfies both sides, is the "right" answer. Talk of courts is rather silly; firstly it's a waste of everyone's time for such a trivial amount and secondly whether you win or lose, the AME will never talk to you again.

If the AME pays then it's not like the money comes from nowhere; he's going to make it up on your next bill, and or all his other customer's bills in the future. If you want good prices for work then it's fair for you to take on part of the risk.

Do I let my car shop off that easy? A big chain garage I'd expect them to pay out of their "goodwill" budget, but they're charging higher prices in order to have a "goodwill" budget. A small shop with low fees? Yes, I'd feel the same way.

[crazyaviator]

The large Lycomings with the small stud and insert can be a real pain in the tush to remove. The larger diameter studs take time and a little experience. Some studs need a nut welded back on the remaining portion after it breaks off and the cylinder heated a LOT. Most nuts can be removed with heat, some nuts CANNOT be removed with heat and the stud will break off. IF the cylinder/ exhaust system has been neglected for a long time, these studs can pose a problem. IF the owner/AMO removes the exhaust and replaces studs/Gaskets in a timely manner, there should be no stud breakage problems. Preventative maintenance is COSTLY and the Owner may shoulder some liability for being too cheap. Cracking a cylinder without the use of excessive heat to remove a broken stud seems unlikely !

[SuperchargedRS]

Why would you eat part of the cost ?
I mean its very nice of you to do this but.......
As I asked , do you let your car shop off that easy also ?

It's very easy to win the battle and lose the war. Assuming it wasn't clear incompetence, there's no cast iron rule that says the AME has to pay. Whatever satisfies both sides, is the "right" answer. Talk of courts is rather silly; firstly it's a waste of everyone's time for such a trivial amount and secondly whether you win or lose, the AME will never talk to you again.

If the AME pays then it's not like the money comes from nowhere; he's going to make it up on your next bill, and or all his other customer's bills in the future. If you want good prices for work then it's fair for you to take on part of the risk.

Do I let my car shop off that easy? A big chain garage I'd expect them to pay out of their "goodwill" budget, but they're charging higher prices in order to have a "goodwill" budget. A small shop with low fees? Yes, I'd feel the same way.

So it's a trivial amount?

But it's a lot for a "small shop"?

[CID]

The key term to consider is "negligence". If damage is done due to negligence then the repair shop should be on the hook. If the damage was done in spite of using proper care and caution while performing tasks in accordance with required and/or accepted practices, then it's just another cost of owning an airplane.

So the question is how far do you want to go? I would, very carefully approach management and ask "how it happened" and if there was any way it could be avoided. From there decide if you want to ask for some sort of relief. Maybe even have them provide the cylinder at cost and install it free of charge.

Whatever compromise you make, keep in mind that the flow of free advice might come grinding to a halt as you are identified as a liability. That's why some places put you on the clock rather than hand out free advice or help. A good company has proper insurance coverage and makes enough money to pad this sort of reasonable loss. That includes treating every inquiry like a business inquiry.

When I call the furnace guy to come look at something, he charges me even if he doesn't do anything but "take a look". The general mentality of the private pilots I've dealt with seem to think they can take up your time, any time with all manner of questions and walk away without a bill. I had one dude ask to have something tested and after just said thanks an began to walk away. He was surprised when I said "hold on...I have to write this up and give you an invoice".

[SuperchargedRS]

Why all the advice to pussyfoot around and walking on egg shells with this AME, he can make right and probably have a customer for life who will tell a couple people.

Or say "not my problem" loose a customer and get way more bad press.

Not like there are a shortage of wrenches for hire.

Break my plane while its in your hangar and I'm the one you should be careful around.

[photofly]

So it's a trivial amount?

It's a trivial amount to go to court over, yes.

[SuperchargedRS]

So it's a trivial amount?

It's a trivial amount to go to court over, yes.

Then the person who broke it should just replace it and write it off.

I'm not, nor could I ever be, rich enough for $1,500 to be a trivial amount.

[photofly]

If you even have to blink when your annual inspection comes in at a mere $1.5k over your estimate, then you're not rich enough to own an airplane. The AME is there to earn money working on your airplane, and you're there to spend money. How much, is up for discussion.

Why all the advice to pussyfoot around and walking on egg shells with this AME, he can make right and probably have a customer for life who will tell a couple people.

Or say "not my problem" loose a customer and get way more bad press.

Not like there are a shortage of wrenches for hire.

Break my plane while its in your hangar and I'm the one you should be careful around.

Well, I'm sure by the time you've threatened him with a crowbar and pistol-whipped him into fixing your airplane for free, he's going to decide that you're not quite the sort of customer-for-life he's looking for.

[SuperchargedRS]

If you even have to blink when your annual inspection comes in at a mere $1.5k over your estimate, then you're not rich enough to own an airplane. The AME is there to earn money working on your airplane, and you're there to spend money. How much, is up for discussion.

Why all the advice to pussyfoot around and walking on egg shells with this AME, he can make right and probably have a customer for life who will tell a couple people.

Or say "not my problem" loose a customer and get way more bad press.

Not like there are a shortage of wrenches for hire.

Break my plane while its in your hangar and I'm the one you should be careful around.

Well, I'm sure by the time you've threatened him with a crowbar and pistol-whipped him into fixing your airplane for free, he's going to decide that you're not quite the sort of customer-for-life he's looking for.

So bend over and grab your ankles eh?

I own a plane, 185 amphib, and I've replaced a few things from time to time, wear and tear, upgrades, even a knob I broke while turning it in some chop, oops, I have NEVER and will NEVER pay to fix MY plane when YOU break it.

And if the mechanic is breaking TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS worth of airplane, parts and labor, they will never get the chance to decide they don't want me as a customer, I'll fire their ass long before that, I'll also be sure to buy up some of their tools when they go out of business a few years down the road, because that lack of customer service will put you out of business.

Or maybe I should be a mechanic for you, I'll trash your airplane and charge you to fix it, man if most customers were that gullible, rich and stupid, one really could make some good money if they didn't have any ethics.