Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

I heard you the first time. The fact that you have to keep calling it Sharia to find an argument against it shows you're not talking any sense.

If a company is responsible for what goes on in hotel rooms it can control what goes on in hotel rooms. And this has nothing to do with isolating people - party in groups of three or more, if you have to. But two people in a hotel room alone exposes the company to risk that it is required to prevent.

Ok, so I get that you don't like the policy. I agree, it's rather draconian. Let's hear a practical solution from you, then. "Education" isn't cutting it. Let's say there's a pilot, let's call him N, that likes to jump on FAs when nobody else is around. Do you think he's just badly educated? Is the problem merely that nobody told him he shouldn't do that?

Or perhaps you think we should automatically take accusations of harassment as true? No need for an enquiry, just sack the alleged perpetrator?
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plhought
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by plhought »

This is absurd. Developing some sort of rule to ban opposite sexes (or same really) from being together in hotel rooms is ridiculous.

Think of the little ops out there. Male & Female medivac/703 crew sharing a small coop/crew house. Or the female AME tenting out in the bush alone with the Helo pilot 5 clicks from the mine. Happens every day. Prudence and our bloody morals dictate the guy doesn't jump the female.

Thousand's of other professions out there men & women work together in close proximity, with no or little oversight, with the expectation that one isn't going to pounce on the other.

This isn't a questions of internal rules/regs. It's the question of an alleged fool taking advantage of a situation, and the failure of the company to deal with him.

Frankly, if one of my employees had an outstanding charge/'wants-to-be-questioned' in some jurisdiction regarding sexual assault - I certainly wouldn't want him in my outfit.

Look at the RCMP/Military/Medical Prof et al. These are organizations with admitted previously-misogynistic cultures with harassment and abuse policies that fill whole bookshelves. They still struggle with it. They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period. Beatin' around the bush by relocating personnel & duties, isolating the sexes, and protecting senior staff just spreads the problem and pleases no-one.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by crazyaviator »

They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period.
The Catholic church has yet to discover that remedy and they have been at it for nearly 2000 years
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

That kind of policy is draconian and illegal Photofly, you can't tell people who they can or cannot associate with...period. Freedom of association is one of the four fundamental freedoms enshrined in the Constitution Act of 1982.

I gave you the solution in my previous post. It's what every other company uses to good effect and there's no reason it wouldn't work for Westjet.
Rockie wrote: It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

plhought wrote:They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period.
Hey! I've got a much better solution! I can't believe you didn't think of it! All they have to do is put "no creeps" in the job ad, and not employ creeps in the first place! Problem solved! :face palm:
Rockie wrote:That kind of policy is draconian and illegal Photofly, you can't tell people who they can or cannot associate with...period. Freedom of association is one of the four fundamental freedoms enshrined in the Constitution Act of 1982.
Of course you can, if the company is paying for the hotel room. Go f*ck on your own dime, in your own room. if you stay in mine your dick stays solo. I'd love to see a "constitutional challenge" to such a reasonable anti-harassment policy.
Rockie wrote: It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.
You're a good politician. Easy words, great soundbites, but no content.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:Of course you can, if the company is paying for the hotel room.
Here are our fundamental Freedoms protected by the Canadian Constitution since 1982. Please show me where it says "unless your company is paying for your hotel room".

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

freedom of conscience and religion;
freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
freedom of peaceful assembly; and
freedom of association
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:
Rockie wrote: It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.
You're a good politician. Easy words, great soundbites, but no content.
Nonsense. It works for every company I'm aware of including Air Canada and probably the one you work for too. If you're not convinced test the system and document the steps your company takes to put you out on the street.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by CpnCrunch »

Rockie wrote:
photofly wrote:Of course you can, if the company is paying for the hotel room.
Here are our fundamental Freedoms protected by the Canadian Constitution since 1982. Please show me where it says "unless your company is paying for your hotel room".

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

freedom of conscience and religion;
freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
freedom of peaceful assembly; and
freedom of association
So, if photofly and I want to party in your house, Rockie, the Constitution guarantees that you can't stop us?
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

If I didn't want you there you would be trespassing and breaking the law, and if you were breaking the law or disturbing the peace a hotel could kick you out too. Surely that doesn't need to be explained to you. Now, the company could refuse as a matter of policy to pay the room charges if they suspect two people might be breaking their medieval moral code, but they can't stop you from legal association. Nobody can...it's a fundamental freedom. Do you guys get what that means? If not you really do take these things for granted.

It would be truly comical to see a company policy refusing to pay for crew rest accommodations if two employees go behind the same door.
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

CpnCrunch wrote: So, if photofly and I want to party in your house, Rockie, the Constitution guarantees that you can't stop us?
I'd like to bring a couple of strippers and "associate" with them in the cockpit, too. I didn't realize the Constitution guaranteed me the freedom to do that, I shall have to look at it more carefully!
rockie wrote:Now, the company could refuse as a matter of policy to pay the room charges if they suspect two people might be breaking their medieval moral code
It's not a moral code. Two employees in a room together playing scrabble would also be cause for termination. It protects the company having to hold enquiries into things it shouldn't have to be deciding.

I'm still waiting to hear detail on the education that pilots need. Which ones still have to be told that grabbing someone's crotch and trying to kiss them isn't correct behaviour? Apparently education is all that's needed to end harassment once and for all.

The reason I suggested it is because, according to accounts, WestJet encouranges a "party atmosphere, with alcohol" among staff. If that is so then they may have to go further than other organisations to protect their staff. What works for boring old Air Canada might just not suffice for high-livin' WestJet.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by CpnCrunch »

Rockie wrote:If I didn't want you there you would be trespassing and breaking the law, and if you were breaking the law or disturbing the peace a hotel could kick you out too. Surely that doesn't need to be explained to you. Now, the company could refuse as a matter of policy to pay the room charges if they suspect two people might be breaking their medieval moral code, but they can't stop you from legal association. Nobody can...it's a fundamental freedom. Do you guys get what that means? If not you really do take these things for granted.

It would be truly comical to see a company policy refusing to pay for crew rest accommodations if two employees go behind the same door.
The point is that the constitution guarantees that you can associate with your friends somewhere. It doesn't guarantee that you can do it on a particular hotel's private property.
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Rockie wrote:If I didn't want you there you would be trespassing and breaking the law, and if you were breaking the law or disturbing the peace a hotel could kick you out too. Surely that doesn't need to be explained to you. Now, the company could refuse as a matter of policy to pay the room charges if they suspect two people might be breaking their medieval moral code, but they can't stop you from legal association. Nobody can...it's a fundamental freedom. Do you guys get what that means? If not you really do take these things for granted.

It would be truly comical to see a company policy refusing to pay for crew rest accommodations if two employees go behind the same door.
The point is that the constitution guarantees that you can associate with your friends somewhere. It doesn't guarantee that you can do it on a particular hotel's private property.
As long as the hotel has no problem with it yes it does. Does the hotel have a problem with it?
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

"It's not a moral code. Two employees in a room together playing scrabble would also be cause for termination."

Jesus Photofly, you're worse than the Taliban. Hands up whoever wants to work for a company who will fire you for illicitly playing scrabble.........................anyone?
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

So I turn to Google, and search for "employer regulate conduct in hotel"

Lots of interesting links. Nothing directly applicable to Canadian federally regulated companies, but the worldwide consensus is that what employees do in their own time is their own business, with certain exceptions. This would appear to be such an exception.

Australia:
http://www.globalworkplaceinsider.com/2 ... -business/

USA:
http://hotelexecutive.com/business_revi ... -workplace

And there are others. It's not as clear-cut as you think.
Rockie wrote:"It's not a moral code. Two employees in a room together playing scrabble would also be cause for termination."

Jesus Photofly, you're worse than the Taliban. Hands up whoever wants to work for a company who will fire you for illicitly playing scrabble.........................anyone?
Hands up who wants to work for a company that has a strongly enforced policy against allowing employees into situations where harassment is reasonably foreseeable? Anyone? I thought so....

On the positive side, you are welcome to have as many threesomes and orgies as you like; just as long as there's at least one other person in the room to witness any harassment. Does that set your mind at ease?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

Nothing new. If crew conduct at a hotel reflects poorly on a company then the company can and will take action against you because you are damaging their brand and reputation. Perhaps you can tell us how a bunch of crew members playing scrabble in the Captain's room reflects badly on a company?

How does two consenting adults having carnal relations in a hotel room without disturbing the other guests reflect poorly on a company's reputation? What business is it of the company?

What an absurd conversation....
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:Nothing new. If crew conduct at a hotel reflects poorly on a company then the company can and will take action against you because you are damaging their brand and reputation. Perhaps you can tell us how a bunch of crew members playing scrabble in the Captain's room reflects badly on a company?
A bunch of crew members is just fine. When it gets down to the last two, someone else will have to stay or they'll have to move to the lobby.
How does two consenting adults having carnal relations in a hotel room without disturbing the other guests reflect poorly on a company's reputation? What business is it of the company?
It's the company's business because the company has no way of telling who is consenting, and who isn't.

If one of those adults the next day accuses the other of sexual harassment then the company has a duty to investigate and decide who's telling the truth. It is precisely this duty that gives the company the right to regulate what its employees do in that hotel room.

Needless to say, having to hold an enquiry is total waste of company time and resource, with no happy ending.

Regardless of the outcome of such an enquiry there is a significant chance of the company being brought into disrepute (just look at WestJet) so the company has every right to take steps to prevent this situation arising.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by land3 »

March 9: Maui prosecutors waiting to serve WestJet pilot with summons. Lawsuit alleges sexual assault in 2008 in Grande Prairie by Pilot M. Eight women have now come forward.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/maui-prosecutors-w ... -1.2809549
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:It's the company's business because the company has no way of telling who is consenting, and who isn't.
It's not the company's business until one person isn't consenting, that's when it becomes illegal - not before. Haven't you heard the quote "there is no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation"? Pierre Trudeau said it. Well, neither does your employer.

Why not apply your ridiculous standard to society as a whole? No two people permitted alone anywhere, ever. After all it's our business because we would have no way of telling if someone is consenting or not, and investigating and prosecuting claims is a difficult, expensive burden on society. We just don't know what you're capable of Photofly and you need to be controlled.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by gasbag1 »

Photofly

The Canadian Charter of Rights trumps all judgements. No company can tell any employee who or who not they can associate with with in reason. Any reasonable person would understand that humans are not loners. Any company that would require, no 2 employees can be together alone is ridiculous. Normal business could not be completed with that restriction. How could most flight decks be crewed? So how can you make a rule for work and a different rule for layovers.

Even if flight crews were to all men or all female, there can still be many different kinds of harassment.

EDUCATION is the key and along with education is investigation and if necessary, termination. I think all federally regulated companies must have a harassment policy, larger companies have a harassment officer who investigates any complaints.
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote: Haven't you heard the quote "there is no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation"? Pierre Trudeau said it. Well, neither does your employer.
A hotel room paid for by a company is not a private bedroom, and WestJet is not part of Government.

I'm amused that, so far, you've appealed about Sharia law, the Constitution, and now what PET had to say about the decriminalization of homosexuality. Can you really not think of any more focused objections?
gasbag1 wrote: No company can tell any employee who or who not they can associate with with in reason. Any reasonable person would understand that humans are not loners.
It gets better and better. So now you can't spend a night alone in a hotel room - you just have to have company - because otherwise you'll be lonely? If you're scared of the dark, bring a teddy bear, not a Flight Attendant.

This restriction is well within reason, if WestJet has a problem with sexual harassment on layovers.
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