Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:Anyway you say in one post the bar is different and on the next you say the bar is the same but the effort is different
Different meaning of "bar" in each case. The bar for "results to achieve" is the same; the bar for "have they exerted enough effort" is different. We agree Westjet has to do more than the taxi-company; my point that Westjet may have to do more than Air Canada, which I said on page 1, stands.
And you still have not answered either the question of what single company restricts who can be in a hotel room or my point about who actually controls that hotel room. Fundamental questions to the issue that I would have thought you would be eager to answer in support of your opinion.
Whether anyone else has that policy is irrelevant to whether it would be legal, and whether it would help Westjet.

I answered your question about who controls the hotel room here:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 25#p960319
you even read it:
Rockie wrote:How does admitting someone into my room violate anti-harassment policy? Maybe they're my niece or nephew. Maybe she's an FA that wishes to discuss and clarify an incident. Maybe she's a friend. Maybe she's my wife.
Because the new anti-harassment policy putatively states that you may not be alone in a hotel bedroom with another employee. If your niece, nephew or wife works for the same airline, you would be violating the policy to be alone with them in the room. If it makes the policy more reasonable to you we'll amend it - the Rockie amendment - to say that being alone in a hotel room with an employee who is not your spouse or family is a policy violation.

Either way, if you want to discuss an incident with an FA (who is not your wife, niece or nephew) you'll have to find somewhere else other than your hotel room. That's neither hard to understand, nor achieve.

It will not cramp you room-party style, unless your room parties have only two people. You are welcome to @#$! FAs as much as you want, just not in your hotel room that the airline pays for. You can @#$! in your hotel room as much as you want, too, but you'll have to pick members of the public, other hotel guests who are not coworkers, or if you're really desperate and horny, ring for room service.

So, What are you going to do after I terminate you for having a FA in your room as witnessed by Calin Rovinescu? What's your next move?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

Airlines have reasonable expectations for employees on their off hours. They must be rested for duty, they cannot drink in uniform and they cannot drink at all within 12 hours of operating an aircraft. These are all reasonable. Telling employees who they can and cannot associate with is not reasonable. Airlines and layovers have been around a long time and so has sexual harassment, if controlling who employees associate with was a reasonable solution somebody would be doing it by now. Nobody is.

Thanks to Bede we know the Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to governments and their agents and not private corporations, but does that mean corporations are free to impose restrictions on employees that governments cannot? Can a corporation prevent you from joining a union? Can a corporation prevent you from voting in an election or belonging to a religion? Can a corporation tell you that you cannot take part in a legal protest on your time off? Can a corporation tell you who you can spend your off duty time with?

Being alone with another employee is not illegal nor is it unreasonable. The courts haven't specifically ruled on that question to my knowledge because no corporation has been stupid enough to try and impose that kind of oppressive policy yet. But you can be sure if Westjet does they will first get a union, then that union will take them to court over the issue. I'm now actually hoping that they try so we can see how this would play out.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

cgzro wrote:While not for anti harassment reasons, hotels can require their staff to sign a clause in their employment contracts that prohibits them from staying at the hotel or using the hotel's facilities as a guest. That clause would prevent them from visiting and drinking in a friend's room. So that would be one concrete example of an employer having an employment contract that limits an employee's rights.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-hotel-sta ... nths-after
It's the hotel's property...small but important detail. The hotel cannot say the employee may not go to the hotel next door.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

And the airline cannot say the employees may not go to the hotel next door. Where they would be outside the company's responsibility to investigate. It's the same small but important detail.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

Not at all the same. The airline does not own the crew rest facility they are required by regulation to provide. Their name isn't even on the room registration. And if the employees were in the hotel next door when those events occurred the company would still have to investigate.

But like I said, I hope Westjet tries to impose sharia lite on their employees. It would be interesting.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by bandaid »

So 15 pages of opinion about Westjet's reaction to a lawsuit and a lot of speculation on an event that may or may not have happened.
I know a lot of Westjet people. I don't know anyone working for Westjet who is not an adult. As an adult you should know the difference between right and wrong but there are creeps out there (I only say the word creep only because if he did what she says he did he is a creep).
You men out there raising your daughters need to look at this and raise your daughters to not only know how not to get themselves into a situation like this but how to stand up to these creeps should they unexpectedly find themselves cornered. Same advice for your sons.
I do not know if Westjet makes their people take any kind of sexual harassment training prior to starting the job I can only relate to the multiple courses made mandatory by the companies that I have worked for. I suspect that Westjet has a similar hiring criteria but that doesn't mean there aren't people out there that think they are above that expectation of a safe and harassment free work place.
In the end this will work itself out one way or the other. I also expect that all the airlines in Canada are watching this closely and already implementing a training and reporting policy regarding this and similar incidents.
As a man who worked almost exclusively with women throughout a long career I am acutely aware of what can be considered harassment/sexual harassment. I suspect that everyone reading this also knows the difference so a list isn't necessary. You men/women out there know what is right or wrong and what you can say or do that would make another uncomfortable and I sure as hell expect that most women/men know what makes their radar go off. Only when employees have a mutual respect for one another will these events cease to exist but as a realist I can't see this day coming soon. Every big company out there has its creeps.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by plhought »

Even more interesting:

http://m.thetyee.ca/News/2016/03/22/Wes ... stigation/

WestJet surreptitiously 'investigating' and getting an American court order (where such online privacy laws are lacking) to track IPs down to Union-drivers? Man that's greasy.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

The company ... said it did conclude the pilot “failed to meet the standards of conduct and judgment expected of a pilot” and suspended him. The statement of defence noted WestJet employees are expected to conduct themselves professionally and “excessive drinking, partying and fraternization with flight attendants either individually or in groups fails to adhere to these principles.”
How interesting. I wait to hear from the experts about how Westjet is infringing pilots' Charter rights to party, and that anyone who considers that "fraternization with flight attendants" might be frowned upon must be a proponent of Sharia law.

Is it my imagination, or has Ms. Lewis toned down the scarlet lipstick for a more subdued look in her latest round of publicity photographs? I think she has received advice.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Big Bird Anonymous »

The usual westjet cya. I wouldn't fly wetjet if my life depended on it!
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Shady McSly »

Yeah me too!! 'Cause one of the pilots could try and touch my privates while I board!!
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

This is Westjet's response to some of the points raised here. According to the airline, the pilot has returned to Maui as part of his schedule.
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (112.65 KiB) Viewed 2709 times
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:
The company ... said it did conclude the pilot “failed to meet the standards of conduct and judgment expected of a pilot” and suspended him. The statement of defence noted WestJet employees are expected to conduct themselves professionally and “excessive drinking, partying and fraternization with flight attendants either individually or in groups fails to adhere to these principles.”
How interesting. I wait to hear from the experts about how Westjet is infringing pilots' Charter rights to party, and that anyone who considers that "fraternization with flight attendants" might be frowned upon must be a proponent of Sharia law.

Is it my imagination, or has Ms. Lewis toned down the scarlet lipstick for a more subdued look in her latest round of publicity photographs? I think she has received advice.
Excessive drinking and partying sure. Every employer large enough to have a HR department will have that kind of policy. For instance if excessive partying in a room results in complaints, that reflects on Westjet and could result in expulsion from the hotel damaging their business. But "fraternization with the flight attendants"? Bulls**t.

Could you please explain Photofly, how a pilot and a flight attendant having coffee, playing tennis, shopping, dining, having a drink, or having sex in the privacy of their room reflects in any way on the airline? Do you seriously not see how any company in Canada would get their balls cut off in a court challenge by trying to impose that kind of standard?

This is not Saudi Arabia. Canada does not have morality police making sure unmarried people behave according to a strict moral code. If Westjet tries to do so within their company it too will blow up in their face eventually.

Westjet is making themselves look stupid by claiming such a virtuous employee conduct policy on the one hand, then on the other accusing this FA of repeatedly violating that policy for years including causing flight cancellations for drinking with no apparent consequence. But finally writing the word "@#$!" in a letter....well that's just not allowed is it?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:Could you please explain Photofly, how a pilot and a flight attendant having coffee, playing tennis, shopping, dining, having a drink, or having sex in the privacy of their room reflects in any way on the airline?
I don't believe I ever said that it did. I said that the airline could have a legitimate interest in forbidding two employees to be alone in a hotel room together, but my reasoning has nothing whatsoever to do with "how it reflects" on the airline.
Do you seriously not see how any company in Canada would get their balls cut off in a court challenge by trying to impose that kind of standard? This is not Saudi Arabia. Canada does not have morality police making sure unmarried people behave according to a strict moral code. If Westjet tries to do so within their company it too will blow up in their face eventually.
I should probably remind you that the quote is from the company's Statement of Defence, and not from me. Personally I would never infringe on pilot's droit du seigneur rights to undertake excessive shopping with flight attendants.

However it's worth noting that Pilot M apparently accepted the rebuke along with the burden of having to play fewer doubles matches without recourse to a human rights tribunal. So he probably doesn't share your outrage at the weight of the burden of this nearly medieval company yoke.
Westjet is making themselves look stupid by claiming such a virtuous employee conduct policy on the one hand, then on the other accusing this FA of repeatedly violating that policy for years including causing flight cancellations for drinking with no apparent consequence. But finally writing the word "@#$!" in a letter....well that's just not allowed is it?
The point they're making is that there were definitely consequences for her poor behaviour, which was not let pass. Repeated written and verbal warnings. You think they look stupid; I think they look generous and forgiving, right up until the last straw.

I think we have to accept that Westjet have enough money and sense to employ HR professionals who know the law and the legal way to discipline and terminate employees. I will give them the benefit of the doubt until shown otherwise.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

Define "fraternization with flight attendants". Rest assured Westjet will have to now.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraternize

By the way, do you feel that Ms. Lewis's Facebook posts, blog entries - and the email she sent to her line manager - were appropriate for an employee?

Does anyone else think that the CBC should lead its evening news tonight with these explosive allegations against a former WestJet flight attendant. After all what's sauce for the goose...?

I guess I won't hold my breath.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

": to be friendly with someone : to spend time with someone in a friendly way especially when it is considered wrong or improper to do so"

So according to WestJet it is against company policy for pilots to be friendly with a flight attendant. That will take some explanation in court don't you think, why WestJet considers spending time with someone in a friendly way is wrong and improper now that they've retroactively made it company policy?
photofly wrote:By the way, do you feel that Ms. Lewis's Facebook posts, blog entries - and the email she sent to her line manager - were appropriate for an employee?
Irrelevant, Ms. Lewis's facebook posts are not at issue in this court case. WestJet's response to her allegation is. But now that WestJet's brought it up they'll also have to explain why cancelling flights due to drinking following an allegedly long history of non-compliance with company policy is not justification for dismissal, but a curse word in a letter is....coincidentally when she got loud about her previous six year old complaint.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Moose47 »

"Yeah me too!! 'Cause one of the pilots could try and touch my privates while I board!! "

That would only happen if he was a 'Private' pilot.

Cheers...Chris
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote: Irrelevant, Ms. Lewis's facebook posts are not at issue in this court case.
In fact Ms. Lewis's online postings are very much at issue. Remember this is her claim for unfair dismissal, and Westjet are saying explicitly (in ¶¶ 38 - 43 of their Statement of Defence) that her repeated violations of their communications policy are part of the reason she was sacked. She describes her job, online, as "serving cancer in a can to assholes at 40,000ft". Is that appropriate?
WestJet's response to her allegation is. But now that WestJet's brought it up they'll also have to explain why cancelling flights due to drinking following an allegedly long history of non-compliance with company policy is not justification for dismissal, but a curse word in a letter is....coincidentally when she got loud about her previous six year old complaint.
The email that she sent to her line manager, copied to the Senior Manager, People Relations is as follows:
Where the f*ck is my usb card with my file on it. It has been 90 days since I requested them. Fed ex it asap.
Is it insubordinate to write in that tone to your line manager, and copy it to his/her manager? I would say so. It doesn't seem even a tiny bit unreasonable that it might be the last straw and lead to her dismissal.


Additionally: She didn't get loud about her complaint until after she was sacked. Westjet says that it had no notification from her that her request to see her file had anything to do with her six-year-old complaint. Nor had she, in the intervening six years, indicated to the airline that she was unhappy with the way the complaint was handled:
79. During her employment with WestJet, Lewis repeatedly demonstrated that she was capable of asserting her rights on many issues in the workplace. However, at no time did Lewis ever engage WestJet's Guaranteed Fair Treatment Policy and Process (or Dispute Resolution Policy) to object to or challenge the results of WestJet's investigation specifically or WestJet's handling of the Lewis Complaint in general. In fact, Lewis did not express her dissatisfaction with the outcome of her complaint until after the termination of her employment for cause, some 6 years after the actions complained of.
(My emphasis.)

She says the reason she asked for a copy of her file to see what action was taken against Pilot M. That makes no sense - why would details of any disciplinary action against M appear in Ms. Lewis's file?


Westjet's story is basically that from the very start of her employment she was a lousy, rude, insubordinate and unreliable employee whom they terminated with cause. After which she started blowing smoke about harassment and asking for money. Which they're not going to give her. And, I think, given that they can produce every letter and communication with her, they are going to be quite persuasive.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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plhought wrote:Even more interesting:

http://m.thetyee.ca/News/2016/03/22/Wes ... stigation/

WestJet surreptitiously 'investigating' and getting an American court order (where such online privacy laws are lacking) to track IPs down to Union-drivers? Man that's greasy.
You bet. That is very interesting to say the least as how a Canadian Company would get an American Judicial Warrant to access an IP address from a Canadian Citizen(I assume the person in question is) and what grounds, like he is a pro-union person and had access to a Youtube vid that wasn't all to kind to WJ(aka Hitler and RyanAir a few years back. If this is indeed true, I am personally flabbergasted, gob smacked or whatever. Having said that, this particular commentary(IP access) hasn't been mentioned in Canadian MSM at least I didn't see it.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

My turn to make a wild wild prediction: her lawyers (who I'm guessing were acting on a no-win no-fee basis) are going to withdraw representation now that they've read the defence (because they don't think they have a hope of success, and she can't afford to front their fees.) She's going to pay WestJet their legal fees to date, and the case will be dropped.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by CpnCrunch »

Old fella wrote:
You bet. That is very interesting to say the least as how a Canadian Company would get an American Judicial Warrant to access an IP address from a Canadian Citizen(I assume the person in question is) and what grounds, like he is a pro-union person and had access to a Youtube vid that wasn't all to kind to WJ(aka Hitler and RyanAir a few years back. If this is indeed true, I am personally flabbergasted, gob smacked or whatever. Having said that, this particular commentary(IP access) hasn't been mentioned in Canadian MSM at least I didn't see it.
The "union" thing is really a red herring. This is about libel. The court decides whether or not the libel trumps privacy:

https://cippic.ca/en/FAQ/online-anonymi ... ous-rights

Does anyone have a link to the actual video?

Regarding the "cancer to assholes": this is all very disappointing. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like she doesn't really deserve it. People should get their own house in order and check the facts before starting a lawsuit. Her actions aren't going to help solve any sexual harassment problem if there is one. (Westjet's decision to bring in an independent auditor will likely do more good). All she has done is make herself look like an idiot and make Westjet look good. Sad.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by FICU »

Lewis was removed from a shift over concerns she and two others drank alcohol before shift, which led to the flight being cancelled]
This alone would lead to dismissal at most Airlines. Why would WJ not fire a reported poorly performing employee after this screw up but did for an email sent in anger? Makes you wonder.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

FICU wrote:
Lewis was removed from a shift over concerns she and two others drank alcohol before shift, which led to the flight being cancelled]
This alone would lead to dismissal at most Airlines. Why would WJ not fire a reported poorly performing employee after this screw up but did for an email sent in anger? Makes you wonder.
It's obvious. Because they were saving up her inevitable dismissal for later, to make an example of her for making a fuss about harassment, pour encourager les autres.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by FenceSitter »

This whole mess is embarrassing to so many people. It's all going to come out in the wash, a la 2006. It really seems that by "vigorously defend" they meant 'all out attack'. I think it would best serve all parties involved to bring the authorities in and if she is lying, have her charged... but if the company is complicit in any shady dealings they too should face the repercussions. It happens all to often these days that a David and Goliath fight has to happen. This one is happening in the media as well. Let the cops do their job and those responsible will be dealt with.
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