ATC Handoff Questions (Tower->Terminal->Tower)

[photofly]

Here's what the Designated Airspace Handbook has to say about the Victoria Intl control zone. It's authoritative:

3.1.4-17 Victoria, BC:
3.1.4-18 The airspace to 2500´ (2400´ AAE) within the area bounded by a line beginning at:
N48°38'28.32" W123°15'00.24" Can/USA bdry \ thence clockwise along the arc of a circle of
7 miles radius centred on
N48°38'49.30" W123°25'32.80" (Victoria Intl, BC - AD) \ to
N48°41'41.16" W123°15'54.65" Can/USA bdry \ to
N48°38'28.32" W123°15'00.24" Can/USA bdry \ point of beginning

Definitively no more than 7nm radius.

I found an old version (2007) of the DAH that had a very complicated CZ structure approximately (but not exactly) including the area you were referring to, but it has been tidied considerably since then and that area to the NW of YYJ is now outside the CZ. Perhaps your experience predates those changes.

As far as the chart is concerned, as you point out, there's airspace outside of the CZ whose controlling agency is the Tower, but that doesn't make it part of the Control Zone. It's either part of the TCA, or it's a Control Area Extension, or a Transition Area. (My head is spinning from too many lat/longs to check which.)

Why is the distinction important? Because there are CARs that apply only within control zones, like the VFR weather minimum of 3sm ground visibility (where reported) that doesn't apply in the area to which you refer.

Conversely, YYZ has a sliver of it's CZ controlled by Terminal and not the Tower. It's still part of the CZ.

Rookie50's point is that around CYTZ, airspace that far away from the runways is controlled by a second controller (typically Satellites East, or Satellites West) who happens to be at the Pearson ACC. At YYJ they also have a second controller for "outer" traffic, only he sits in the Tower. Same difference.

[16SidedOffice]

Regardless of how you choose to interpret the airspace, responsibility in this case still lies at the Tower. If it's a CAE, it's still part of his or her AOR and still counts as part of their traffic. The area around YTZ that is or isn't handled by Satellites East or West is most likely a different class of airspace (1800nm from my AOR so I don't really know or care) as the ACC's don't control Class D airspace. So far off topic from transiting VFR to Victoria.

[photofly]

The area around YTZ that is or isn't handled by Satellites East or West is most likely a different class of airspace

It's the Class C that's part of the YYZ TCA, and the Class E below. There's no class D.

[16SidedOffice]

Ok, but what does it have to do with transiting to YYJ? Class C, D and Class E are different for a reason.

[photofly]

I think we got here by asking why YYJ needs an inner and outer tower when it's hardly any busier than YTZ that manages with one tower position. The conclusion seems to be that YYJ tower manages airspace of a class and volume that somewhat matches both CYTZ tower's AOR plus CYYZ satellites East/West.

[16SidedOffice]

I don't that you can accurately compare either operation based on having similar traffic stats. There's just so much more to each unit.

[Big Pistons Forever]

At one moment in time the YYJ Control Tower personnel could be dealing with all of the following

- A C 172 checking in at Somenos lake in bound for landing
- A C 172 checking in at Mount Doug in bound for circuits
- A Turbo Otter off of Victoria harbour requesting the overhead transit to Vancouver
- A Beaver on floats by Pender harbour looking for the low level transit to Pat Bay
- A Dash 8 by Beaver point looking for the straight in to Rwy 14
- A 737 joining the ILS 09 at 9 miles
- 2 C 172's downwind 09 for touch and go's
- A homebuilt on short final 09 for a full stop and North side exit
- A C185 floatplane ready for the West Bound slide, low level departure west bound in Pat Bay
- An RCAF Sea King holding on Delta looking for the low level transit South
- An R44 doing hover training in the 03 infield
- A Saab 340 holding on Rwy 03 ready for takeoff

No other airport in Canada has such a varied mix of traffic and skill levels. It would be impossible to manage without dedicated inner and outer frequencies.

[Driving Comet]

At one moment in time the YYJ Control Tower personnel could be dealing with all of the following

- A C 172 checking in at Somenos lake in bound for landing
- A C 172 checking in at Mount Doug in bound for circuits
- A Turbo Otter off of Victoria harbour requesting the overhead transit to Vancouver
- A Beaver on floats by Pender harbour looking for the low level transit to Pat Bay
- A Dash 8 by Beaver point looking for the straight in to Rwy 14
- A 737 joining the ILS 09 at 9 miles
- 2 C 172's downwind 09 for touch and go's
- A homebuilt on short final 09 for a full stop and North side exit
- A C185 floatplane ready for the West Bound slide, low level departure west bound in Pat Bay
- An RCAF Sea King holding on Delta looking for the low level transit South
- An R44 doing hover training in the 03 infield
- A Saab 340 holding on Rwy 03 ready for takeoff

No other airport in Canada has such a varied mix of traffic and skill levels. It would be impossible to manage without dedicated inner and outer frequencies.

I can sit here and list all the complex and high volume traffic we run as well (just as complex as you make this sound, by the way), everyone can. It's so much more than number of planes and what they want. You might be impressed and think this is complex, maybe it is, but maybe the feet stayed firmly planted up on the console.

Not a dig at YYJ tower either. Seems like they run a smooth operation from what a hear; not something that is easy to do a lot of time. It's on my short list of places to go out and see this summer.

As for the extra control area outside the CZ. I wonder if this a tower radar area... I didn't know of any towers this had this sort of thing that it's outside the actual CZ. Pretty interesting if it is.

[16SidedOffice]

YVR has a rather large Tower radar area as well, extending out 13nm from the south to northwest to cover the float, heli and other VFR traffic.
I wouldn't say every controller was rolling their eyes (well maybe all of the IFR guys ), there aren't many airport operations with the mix of traffic like that in the country.

[AirRookie]

2. On the VTA you will see that there are 2 routes guaranteed to allow you to cross at a minimum of 4500' regardless of how badly NavCanada Surrey has failed to deal with their staffing requirements. DO NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER. Do not accept "You'll have to stay at 2500' to keep clear of the class C". Do not accept any BS. Tell them which of the two routes on the VTA you want and what altitude you are going to be at. If it's a particularly bad day, you may have to give up on getting an answer from YVR TML and call YYJ TML instead to get clearance across the straight. Be patient, give yourself 5 minutes extra time to have a good plan and clearance before crossing, and go have a nice flight.

After a great flight last time I went over again yesterday. This time YVR terminal denied me entry into the class C with no explanation (I'm assuming they were busy), but what can you do in that situation? Can't exactly waste frequency time discussing CARS or CFS procedures if they're super busy, is the option to go 2500' (which I did) or call up YYJ? Can YYJ clear me through YVRs airspace (the short stretch over Point Roberts)?

[A346Dude]

As for the extra control area outside the CZ. I wonder if this a tower radar area... I didn't know of any towers this had this sort of thing that it's outside the actual CZ. Pretty interesting if it is.

I believe it is a Tower Radar Area. Tower controllers cannot provide control services to aircraft outside of a control zone or TRA. In many (most?) cases, the TRA simply coincides with the dimensions of the CZ.