Flight Instructors (job-career?) - why so negative?

[marakii]

I seem to be reading alot on how bad a pilot position of being a flight instructor can be.

Is it the hours, I know the pay can be better, not enough knowledgeable instructors, etc. Is there such a thing anymore of a career flight instructor today and why the dis-respect that they get? Didn't we all have one at some point in our flying days?

Just curious on the matter before I re-new mine again??

[DanWEC]

It could be a career, but there is a pretty wide range of pay. As I'm sure you know the class 4 pay is laughable, but it's entry level. There are positions out there that are more career like though. You can make decent money as a CFI and/or class 1 and pilot examiner. Home every night. Only fly in good weather, no ab initio.
Seneca college has been looking for flight instructors with a degree and ATPL. 60k a year, full benefits and 4 weeks vaca. Not bad.

[photofly]

What's wrong with ab initio?

[DanWEC]

Nothing, at first and on occasion, but it requires a lot more effort and patience depending on the student. A few years of it could burn out some instructors.

[photofly]

Teaching anything requires a lot of effort and patience. If you're too lazy, don't become a flight instructor. If you don't like teaching, don't become a flight instructor. If you only want to sit in your office telling other instructors what to do, and administer flight tests - don't become a flight instructor.

[Rookie50]

I seem to be reading alot on how bad a pilot position of being a flight instructor can be.

............. why the dis-respect that they get?

An entitlement attitude to respect is never going to get it, in any field, just from a title, letters, degree, or ratings. Aviation isn't remotely "special" this in this regard.

Respect is earned, in any field, not as a position, but as an individual displaying hard work and character, over and and over again.

It is never a right nor entitlement, much as many demand this as such.

It is hard won and easily lost. With me, once lost its usually permanent.

But if you win and keep it the world is your oyster, because as respect comes through continuous integrity, honesty, work ethic, character -- those are rare commodities. Few competitors. That's the positive. You will advance.

I speak through the lens of being a long time business owner, FWIW --

[switchflicker]

Instructors in places like Flight Safety are very well paid and from what I've seen are respected because most of the time they know of what they speak. Granted, they only deal with pilots and engineers who are fairly experienced but I remember being in class with owner/pilots who were heavy in the money department and a bit short in the smarts.

[7ECA]

The vast majority, of Class 4 and 3 instructors that I have met, have no air of entitlement or attitude that they are somehow the shit hot stick on the base. As a matter of fact most of these guys and gals are pretty humble people, who end up putting up with a lot of shit from the school they work at, or the occasional angry student whom is displeased with their own progress.

I've often found that the Class 1 and 2 folks are the ones whom are the most arrogant, rude, and generally unfriendly people around (in my experience at least).

Flight Instruction is a profession or trade in which you are taught to a standard, and then have to pass on your knowledge and skill to new pilots, all the while building your own skill, ability, and knowledge. People who enter into instructing and refuse to learn new things, or are only in it to build hours to jump into a Navajo or whatever multi-IFR bird are useless.

There are plenty of folks out there who instruct to gain hours and experience, but actually have a passion for teaching - these are the people you need to seek out at a flight school. Once you find an instructor like this stick with them, and you will learn a lot and have a great experience.

The main problem with instructing is the entry level Class 4 job. You just spent upwards of $10,000 getting your Class 4 (plus any and all debt from getting your CPL), now you are working at a school that often treats you like a piece of meat. You are expected to be at the school from sunrise to sunset, are only paid for the time you are flying or briefing a student, get no benefits, expected to do additional work for no pay, and unless you are the golden child who can tolerate kissing the ass of the owner will end up with no students...

Now, say you stick it out, making a consistent wage well below the poverty line, and eventually upgrade to a Class 3, things tend to only get marginally better. Most Class 3's make the same "hourly rate" (and I use the term rather generously because you are still only paid when flying or briefing) as a Class 4, but some schools dangle a carrot for you to upgrade - we'll make you a salaried employee. Yahoo, except that salary is often the paltry sum of $500/month.

Most people by now end up hating their jobs (if they already didn't), and walk away whenever the opportunity arises to get the F*&% out of dodge.

The funny thing of course, is that there are CFI's out there making very substantial salaries, all the while looming over their Class 4 and 3 colleagues making next to nothing (well it really isn't funny, unless you've got a rather strange sense of humour)...

[DanWEC]

Teaching anything requires a lot of effort and patience. If you're too lazy, don't become a flight instructor. If you don't like teaching, don't become a flight instructor. If you only want to sit in your office telling other instructors what to do, and administer flight tests - don't become a flight instructor.

Oh come on now. I don't mean to be offensive, but if you spent a few years working full time, climbing your way up through the ranks of instruction as many, many people here have including myself, you would have a different perspective on whether you want to spend all day, every day, teaching ab initio, 8 flights a day, likely with the added layer of a language barrier, compared with doing, say, MIFR, flight tests and some menial office tasks.

I really like ab initio once in a while, it's rewarding to to see the basic skills grow in a student and it's all new and amazing for them.... but this is a career discussion, and I don't know a single instructor who wants to teach it all day long for the rest of their lives!

[Rookie50]

The vast majority, of Class 4 and 3 instructors that I have met, have no air of entitlement or attitude that they are somehow the shit hot stick on the base. .

Regretfully I've met plenty, at the entry level in many industries, I would put into that category. I don't get it.

If you'll indulge, I'm trying to make a small point from the customer side. And yes, many of us business guys have too much money and no brains, but not all. Some of us are serious students, trying to learn, trying to be safe.

My point is if you're in the flight training business, firstly you are in the customer service business, which means the the people business, the sales business. If you are an awesome pilot but can't relate to people, (with the money) ain't going to get too far.

I recall one instructor I flew with (not my main ones who were excellent) -- who in response to a genuine, learning type question, made me feel quite stupid. Never again would I fly with that person. Didn't know me, but had to act superior, instead of patient with a (probably bonehead) question.

Now one can say, "its my way or the highway", well I'm the customer with the money, so you lost. Not me. And I tell my friends, too.

Referrals. That's how you move up in the world, class 4-3-2-1, because customers ask for you. Its customer driven.

[gowest]

very simple: you work very hard for very little money.

After 10 year as an Class One FI and examiner you wouldn't do much more than 40-50K /year (correct me if I am wrong)
while after 10 years in the airline world you could do 200K+ /year as a 737 skipper, sipping coffee and eating hot meal doing straight lines at FL370...

So yes, financially the FI route is a bit of a dead end...

[single_swine_herder]

What's wrong with ab initio?

After a while, they drive you crazy and seem to burn a person out at a rate faster than teaching instrument, type ratings, instructor ratings, seaplane ratings, etc.

[digits_]

A lot depends on the company you work (pay, stability, lifestyle) and the type of instructing you do. You will undoubtedly have to work with students you don't want to work with (bad attitude), and that can really drain your energy.

The bad name very often comes from people who have never been a flight instructor and do not know what exactly is involved or why "we" do what we do. A lot of times, the negative things are not up to the instructors, but up to the FTU / Transport and sometimes the customer.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I think that there is a perception that a career instructor is someone who couldn't make it in the "real" world of aviation. Not saying I agree, but I think it is out there.

[marakii]

I think that there is a perception that a career instructor is someone who couldn't make it in the "real" world of aviation. Not saying I agree, but I think it is out there.

You mean flying a crappy Navajo for a bad operator puts that pilot ahead of the dedicated class 1 instructor that has been doing it for a long time dedicated to providing the up and coming pilot a start in aviation?

Sad indeed how we forget that we all started with a flight instructor beside us to teach us and how the big plane pilots look down on them.

I'm not surprised.

[SuperchargedRS]

Sure you can, you can make a good living, but it ain't going to be working for someone, stsrting your own school in the right location with the right aircraft and people, it's just business and it comes down to if you have the chops for it.

[awitzke]

If you want to be a career FI go get a job at a uni. Confed, Mt. Royal etc. I hear they pay very well and the hours aren't bad.

[Rookie50]

Sure you can, you can make a good living, but it ain't going to be working for someone, stsrting your own school in the right location with the right aircraft and people, it's just business and it comes down to if you have the chops for it.

That's right. If the money is poor and owners are raking in the big bucks doing nothing, I have an easy answer:

Quit your job and start a company.

Life is about choices.

[ThatArmyGuy]

If you want to be a career FI go get a job at a uni. Confed, Mt. Royal etc. I hear they pay very well and the hours aren't bad.

Although I personally haven't applied, an ex-coworker of mine did look at moving from a flying club to Mt Royal at YBW. The pay was $30/k salary, 6 days a week for an experienced Class 3. I do hope that I am wrong with my previous statement, but let's not pretend that the college programs have the best money in terms of pay...

Now the flip side of the coin is that they are salaried positions and therefore when December hits and you are "hourly" your paycheck won't go to zero. And... there's only so many PGIs you can get ahead on with each student to put food on your table before you start wasting the student's money and time.

TAG

[photofly]

Sure you can, you can make a good living, but it ain't going to be working for someone, stsrting your own school in the right location with the right aircraft and people, it's just business and it comes down to if you have the chops for it.

That's right. If the money is poor and owners are raking in the big bucks doing nothing, I have an easy answer:

Quit your job and start a company.

Life is about choices.

I'd be more sympathetic to this argument if the barriers to entry weren't so high. The level of red tape and government hoop-jumping that is required before being allowed to do this, even as a fully qualified class 2 or class 1 flight instructor, relative to the miniscule turnover of a small flight school, is quite astounding.

The reality is that the person establishing a small new flight school is unlikely to have much time or energy left for the actual job of instructing students.

[Rookie50]

PF;

Starting and sustaining any small business is brutally hard. Brutal, like 14 hour days, sleepless nights. Trust me, I know.

That's why in our system the rewards flow to the successful risk takers with persistence, although our government seems determined to punish this.

It is possible, though. I'm not very smart, I just was too dumb to quit.

[photofly]

I'm aware of the difficulties; you're not the only person to have been there and done that.

However, when the difficulties are government imposed rather than stemming from market competition in any way, that's an artificial barrier to entry. 14 hour days will not get you an FTUOC any faster.

If you're a lawyer, or an accountant you can set up on your own relatively easily, and spend your energy building the business as well as working in it. If you're a flight instructor and you open a flight school you're likely to end up as a flight school manager and not have any time for the job of teaching.

There are any number of one-person professional companies in Canada. But I've never heard of a single-instructor FTU. Anyone know any?

[Rookie50]

I'm aware of the difficulties; you're not the only person to have been there and done that.

However, when the difficulties are government imposed rather than stemming from market competition in any way, that's an artificial barrier to entry. 14 hour days will not get you an FTUOC any faster.

If you're a lawyer, or an accountant you can set up on your own relatively easily, and spend your energy building the business as well as working in it. If you're a flight instructor and you open a flight school you're likely to end up as a flight school manager and not have any time for the job of teaching.

There are any number of one-person professional companies in Canada. But I've never heard of a single-instructor FTU. Anyone know any?

Gee; It still comes down to choice. Why does if have to be an FTU OC model?

If it was me --I dunno enough about it -- maybe I would choose the freelance route, build my brand as the very best in some aspect of flight training. Don't some do this? That's a business, essentially.

Example is Brian the Dunker guy. (good course BTW) He -- found some underserved need and responded. PDar's is another. Now those aren't traditional, but traditional rarely works. Too crowded.

[photofly]

The vast majority of instructional work in Canada is an-initio training in aircraft not owned by the trainee. That requires, bay law, an FTUOC, and aircraft registered as Commercial and maintained by an AMO.

In the context of a junior instructor quitting a flight school to open his own business, I'm sure you'd agree (in fact you're the poster boy for the position) that he or she shouldn't be touting for any kind of advanced, instrument or type training. There are not enough people training for a PPL in Canada in their own aircraft to support any kind of real business. Particularly a business that can service only local customers.

That leaves teaching people for a PPL in a 150 or 172, which is a respectable day job for someone to hold. Unfortunately TC make it extremely difficult to set up a small business to service that market.

I believe the only reason they don't regulate more advanced training in a similar manner is because there are too few $$$ being exchanged for it to make it worth regulating.

Please remember your comment of "if you don't like (flight instructor) wages, open your own business." Neither Bryan nor PilotDAR teach flying.

[Rookie50]

PF;

Then regretfully, like much of aviation, its simple a supply and demand dynamic for what is seen as a commodity product. Hence, eg. pilots are willing to fly for free to gain experience. I get this must be very frustrating, I and don't support those taking advantage (like certain skydiving outfits)

My own small business, due to computerized automation, has radically changed in recent years. It has become infinitely more difficult, and 80% of others I knew in similar enterprises, (starting 20 years ago) are out of their businesses today. I am also bound by strict regulation (compared to the US, for example) in what I can offer.

The best business to consider for a struggling flight instructor, may not be in that precise field, but a related niche, service area, like Brian is doing.

I don't know the industry dynamics well enough beyond that. Perhaps it varies by region, too. It really depends on ones priorities, to accept the situation out of a love of teaching, or make changes.